[00:00:00] James: welcome to episode 188 of the Bandhive Podcast. It is time for another episode of the Bandhive Podcast. My name is James Cross and I help independent artist Tour Smart. This week I don't have a guest. I don't have a co-host. I have a very special returning guest co-host, Mr. Aaron Gingras of the band's Suburban Samurai, as well as the band that I am in nerves.

[00:00:23] James: It is a pleasure to have you back, man. It's been uh, 138 episodes since you were last on the show. You were,

[00:00:29] James: an official co-host for most of those first 50 episodes. I'm stoked to have you back, man. How are things going?

[00:00:35] Aaron: Going well, yeah, when I saw the note that it's been since episode 50 and 138 since then, time flies, but it's gonna be back.

[00:00:43] Aaron: It was super fun to be a part of the first

[00:00:45] James: does.

[00:00:45] Aaron: It And it's been really great to see where I remember leaving it and then all the progress that's been made so far and kind of where these episodes are now in terms of, quality and when they're dropping and the content.

[00:00:57] Aaron: So yeah. Happy to leapfrog back in for an [00:01:00] episode.

[00:01:00] James: Yeah. Thank you man. Like I said, it's a pleasure to have you back and thank you for those kind words before we jump in. And I wish I could do like a Gilbert Gottfried impersonation for anyone who's not like 30 or older. Gilbert Gottfried is the guy that used to be the Aflac Duck with that really annoying voice.

[00:01:15] James: Be like Aflac. I love the voice. I just wish I could do it for this, cuz this episode is gonna be titled something along the lines of Shows are worth more than $5, A Cheap Ass Punk. Something along those lines. we'll figure it out.

[00:01:27] James: But before we jump into that, what's new in Sub Sam world and uh, keeping in mind. I'm gonna see you guys play in like four days, but this episode's coming out in five weeks. So your shows that you have announced so far are gonna be, past tense. By that time,

[00:01:41] Aaron: Yeah, so uh, I drum in Suburban Samurai or Sub Sam three piece melodic punk band from Burlington, Vermont. Been around since about 2016.

[00:01:50] James: give yourself that full credit for 2015, man.

[00:01:52] Aaron: Okay, I'll take it. 20 15, 20 16 is when we hopped in the van and started to actually do stuff, but, I think I do have to claim [00:02:00] 2015 because we just celebrated our eighth birthday party and that would be 2015.

[00:02:04] Aaron: So you're right. melodic funk from Burlington. And um, we have a couple shows coming up for all you time travelers out there. We've got June 2nd and June 29th, just local gigs and Burlington. Uh, and we're working on, a new model which will allow us to kind of get back out there, on the road in a way that we haven't for a while, since the before times.

[00:02:24] Aaron: And we'll have some stuff coming up in Boston and Portland later in the fall.

[00:02:29] James: Sick. That is awesome to hear. I'm stoked. You guys are getting back out on the road after a old yeller had to be put down. That was unfortunate.

[00:02:36] Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. That was, uh, she served us well and quite frankly, really surprised that we never broke down on the side of the road or, you know, well as old, D H l Vance go. She brought us great experience

[00:02:48] James: that is always a pleasant surprise. the irony here is I know we've talked about like. The bus breaking down and stuff. I did have a breakdown in a van once, but it wasn't my vans van. It was a hotel shuttle [00:03:00] on a day off from Warped Tour. We were going like two miles from the hotel to the train station the driver hit this giant pothole and we got a flat tire, so we had to walk like a mile pretty quickly to catch our train.

[00:03:11] James: That was uh, no fun. But so uh, standing ovation for Old Yeller, making it as far as she did and not dying mid tour. That is definitely a good thing. So that's Sub Sam. And then of course you're also the drummer of Nerves where I play bass and we have Rustin and Joe on guitar. we made you do double duty for your uh, your birthday show. That was uh, a long night for you. I think.

[00:03:35] Aaron: Yeah. I think that was the first time that I've ever pulled double duty at a show, I feel like both fans had good shows there. There was a good turnout. It was super fun. And it helps when you like, kind of psych yourself up before, like mentally prepare for the pain that is like two punk sets in a row or rock sets in a row. But yeah, that, I think this was the first time I ever did [00:04:00] that, but it was super fun.

[00:04:01] James: yeah. No, that was a great show. And I also should point out that we specifically put nerves first. I mean, first of all, it was a Sub Sam show. It was your birthday party. But we put nerves first before Sub Sam knowing that our set is a little bit calmer than Sub Sam.

[00:04:16] Aaron: funny. I I thought that too. And, and the joke before was like, oh, thank God.

[00:04:20] Aaron: But I, I don't know, we go kind of hard and nerves though too. I mean, it's all like relative, like, you know, the, like, BPM might be like a lower number or something, but that just means that I can hit things a little harder and like kind of like get into it in a different way, you know? So I thought that that might be helpful.

[00:04:39] Aaron: And then afterwards I was like, no. you still get way into, into it. Like it doesn't matter how quick we play.

[00:04:45] James: That's funny. Yeah, I was just thinking, well, you're not doing blast beats for a full 30 minutes, so it'll be fine. But you make a good point. You can hit harder, put more energy into each hit.

[00:04:54] Aaron: Yeah. Which feels good for me, but I, I don't know if that feels as good for you, you or Vincent running the [00:05:00] audio that night if you're like, damn drummer hitting everything at different consistencies.

[00:05:04] James: I mixed the, the sub Sam set and that was fine. Vincent dealt with the nerves, so

[00:05:10] James: no real comparison there.

[00:05:12] James: that all said, we also have a show coming up in the past June 21st, free show, make Music Day with of Conscious Mind and Dizzy Bats, who you're also playing with, uh, three days.

[00:05:22] James: Dizzy Bats being my friend Connor, who I've been cat sitting for a bunch cuz he has a, cute little, very round, lazy, happy cat named Abby no Tail. Who, uh, she's asthmatic. So even if they go away for like one night, they need somebody to come give her meds. So, uh, that's, uh, dizzy Bats. Yeah.

[00:05:40] James: Connor's been on three episodes, I believe. wanna say he was our first three Pete guest and we're totally off in the weeds here, but I'm gonna look up these episodes. Let's see here. Connor, was on episode 1 72 taking Dizzy Bats on the road. So that's at Bandhive Rock slash 1 7 2.

[00:05:56] James: So that was just about three months ago. It was Pie Day, [00:06:00] March 14th, 2023. Then he was on one 15 writer's block. Not anymore. So you can find that at Bandhive rocks slash one 15. And then we have number 80, setting your Goals for Success. So Bandhive Rocks slash eight zero. just wanna toss this out there too, if anybody wants to hear more on Aaron's background and why Aaron is an absolute badass in the music business.

[00:06:24] James: Go all the way back to episode number two, released in December of 2019. It's called How Perseverance Pays Off. Meet Aaron Gingras and James Cross. Wait, that's me. Why do people have to meet? I don't know. But they do have to meet you unless they, uh, listen to that one back in the day. that's just Bandhive Rocks slash two.

[00:06:39] James: I don't think I've referenced any of the first 10 episodes in a good two, two to three years. It's been a while. All those episodes we recorded before the giant panini shut down the world and made us stop talking about touring for a while. That was unfortunate. You know, it's, I always preach being as far in advance on planning as possible, and then the global pandemic hits and you're like,[00:07:00] well, we have another two month worth of touring episodes planned.

[00:07:03] James: They're all recorded and edited and scheduled, and, uh, there's a global pandemic. What do we do now? That was uh, kinda like, oh, maybe we shouldn't go that far ahead. Maybe like a month is good.

[00:07:14] Aaron: This is true. But we're recording an episode today and it's 2023. So

[00:07:19] James: Yes, we are. Thank you for pulling me back on track. We're gonna talk about why $5. Is too cheap for a show or $3 if you wish, is too cheap for a show. And I, I specifically remember, our friends in Keep Flying played a show at the Monkey House for $3 last fall. And I was like, that's a touring band.

[00:07:38] James: way too little. And I mean, no disrespect, my friend booked that show. Put it on but that is way too cheap for a touring band. that hurts my heart. Cuz if you're on tour, you need that money and $3 in a hundred cap 94 cap. Even, even if they had sold out that show, which they sold about 40 tickets, I think that's 120 bucks [00:08:00] split between four bands.

[00:08:01] James: That's not a good look. That's a $30 take per band.

[00:08:04] Aaron: That's like when you see that advertised I feel like joking, but kind of not joking. That's close to you see the flyer and then you're like, oh, oh, okay. I have to go to that show now. Like, that's, that ter like, I don't know how or why people whip out, it's $5, it's $3 anymore, like outside of Oh, maybe that'll bring a lot of, lot of people out. that's gotta be the thought.

[00:08:27] James: Yeah. And, and I can definitely see like, you know, the buzz, which is our radio station up here, does 99 cent low dose shows. That's totally fine. I don't know the deal specifics, but what I can assume as an educated guess is that they are giving The art a guarantee. It's a sponsored show. The artist is getting way more than $300, cuz it's a 300 cap room, 99 cents, all that.

[00:08:48] James: So they're probably getting at least 500 to a thousand bucks for the show. And the buzz is taking that as a promotional expense. They're saying, this is marketing, we're getting people out here, they're listening to us.

[00:08:59] Aaron: [00:09:00] Totally. And they've got signage, I'm sure all over the show, wherever it might be.

[00:09:04] Aaron: They've got somebody there handing out stickers or whatnot.

[00:09:07] James: yeah. And they, and they have a close relationship with Higher Ground. They've been doing these shows for at least 13 years. Like, Yeah, I've seen a couple. We, we had Bayside come through as a 99 cent show. That was incredible.

[00:09:18] Aaron: There are some big bands that have come through with that

[00:09:21] James: a 99 cent show in a 750 cap.

[00:09:23] James: That's incredible. and the fact that that pricing hasn't changed in 13 years, like,

[00:09:28] James: thank you to the buzz. Just shout out to them. So making that clear, that's not what we're talking about in cases like that, you know, whatever. If they want to pay the band well and then sell tickets super cheap, that's fine.

[00:09:41] James: But when you're talking about touring bands or even locals who are getting a door deal, that's not so nice. and the reason it's bad for locals too is, you know what, yeah, maybe you live five minutes from the venue, but it reinforces that local music is not worth much. And that's not the case. Like we all know.

[00:09:57] James: There's some local bands that are just terrible and nobody wants [00:10:00] to see them. There's other local bands who are really good and could charge 15, $20 for ticket and get away with it. know, nerves played a higher ground and this is opening for a National touring act, but that was a $22 ticket, I wanna say.

[00:10:14] James: It was up there, it was like 20 advance, 22 day a show, something like that. And that was a good turnout. My friend Troy, who's been on a couple episodes I'm not gonna look up the numbers, sorry, if you want to hear that. He's a great guy. Just search Bandhive, Troy Mullet, and you'll find him.

[00:10:28] James: Otherwise I'm gonna be referring to too many episodes this week. He's played higher ground as a headliner, 5, 6, 7 times, quite a few times I've been to the last three, and that's consistently like a 15, $20 ticket. And I'm happy to pay for that because it's a fun show. And the last two times I even went solo to those, I was just like, I want to go see this cuz it's a fun show.

[00:10:46] James: He's my friend. I'm gonna go like whatever. And it's worth it. So. Local artists can charge more.

[00:10:52] James: and

[00:10:52] James: what Troy does is, to be honest, he does a lot of free shows at breweries, at vineyards, at bars, at [00:11:00] restaurants, whatever, where that location is paying him to be there, and he's providing music for their customers. But he uses all of those to promote the one big show he does at higher ground every six to eight months. So doing free shows is not necessarily bad as long as you're still getting paid. If you're not getting paid, you're taking money out of other artists' pockets because true pros would ask for money in those situations.

[00:11:22] Aaron: we're, we're kind of talking about like a sort of a weird middle ground today, right? I mean, you, you mentioned Troy and I, I don't know too much about his full production on, like a ballroom show or a, you know, a large club show or something. But everything that I do know about him, it seems like he plays, and I could be wrong, but he seems like he plays the kind of music that, you know, he can scale his live show.

[00:11:44] Aaron: I'd imagine he can scale it down to something as little as him or one to two other players, or bring in the big band so what you're kind of talking about, I mean, it's sort of the same as flyering. Except you're, you know, in a corner, in a bar somewhere, playing songs all night.

[00:11:59] Aaron: one [00:12:00] could look at that as an investment in a full scale, you know, a show with full scale production and, and that being the presentation. that's what I like to think of. like a bigger show cuz show, show, show could mean, you know, me playing in a basement somewhere.

[00:12:15] Aaron: Or it could mean playing at higher ground or, or, you know, somewhere else. But presentation, I, I feel like people should think of their shows more as presentations and when you start to, really feel like you've been investing your time and energy into the production value or, or you know, you are being a musician and the show, whatever it is.

[00:12:33] Aaron: feel like the more that you think about that, the trickier it will become when you try to justify keeping a ticket at $5.

[00:12:42] James: Yeah, exactly. Like he does a lot of solo or duo, sometimes trio shows, and then he has like the full five or six piece band and they're very modular. Like he has the same guys consistently, he doesn't always have all of them. So it really depends on the flexibility. Just like with nerves, we're probably gonna be playing Make Music Day without Rustin [00:13:00] one of our guitarists and singers because his wife just had a kid last night, congrats to them But with a three week old baby, it's kind of tough to go play a show an hour from where you live.

[00:13:08] James: if he can make it amazing. If not, it is what it is. We're gonna play the show. We're gonna have a great time, and we're gonna send him all the videos and be like, oh man, you missed out.

[00:13:14] James: Now that all said, yeah. So Troy Scales and his production at Higher Ground is vastly different from when he's playing Shelburne Vineyard or something like that. playing vineyards and restaurants costs time, but gives you money. So you're getting paid to promote your own shows. That's a really nice way to run things. If you have the type of music, you can do that.

[00:13:34] James: If you're doing a lot of covers, if you're doing folky kind of stuff, that's a really good route to go down. And I also like that you mentioned flyering because, uh, it's 2023, but flyering still matters. a couple weeks ago off of their head, sent out an email to their email list saying, Hey, we're doing this big tour.

[00:13:48] James: We want you to put up flyers in your city. Just say you're in and we'll send you a bunch of posters. You put the venue and the date on there and hang 'em up.

[00:13:56] James: that's great. Bands are still doing that. That's what you need to promote a [00:14:00] show is have that will to go out there and do what it takes. the Boston show for that tour, I wanna say there's probably about 150 people there, maybe 200 in a uh, 500 ish cap room.

[00:14:11] James: Pretty big. Was it Sinclair? So it wasn't a sellout, but it was decently attended for that room. maybe my eyeballs are off. Maybe it was even like 300, but it was definitely not close to selling out. That said, played with them when they played Monkey House back in February. It was a $15 ticket for both shows.

[00:14:29] James: And I'm thinking, hey, that's great. keep your tickets cheap, but you're playing a venue that's three times the size and now you have a bass player with you too. They weren't a full band. They usually as a full band, they're a four piece. They were still a trio instead of a duo. But, you know, larger venue.

[00:14:43] James: You're gonna have more costs. You have touring openers, so you're gonna have to pay them a little something. And you have another person on the road with you who needs to get paid. So, you know, maybe a little more than 15, like, I would've paid 2025 for that show. And I'm stoked that they keep the prices low.

[00:14:58] James: But at the same time, [00:15:00] touring bands for $15 when local shows are 10, $15, in my opinion, they're not charging enough.

[00:15:05] Aaron: yeah, feel like it always comes down to like what you're seeing, like what the band is, you know, of course as with anything but $15 is a royal, like, that seems like a cheap show no matter, you know, who I'm

[00:15:16] James: Yeah. Well it was at Sinclair,

[00:15:18] Aaron: Sinclair, I mean, but Yeah.

[00:15:19] James: smaller room.

[00:15:21] Aaron: if I may be so bold, $5 for a local show is pushing it. And that's something that I would've said in 2010

[00:15:31] James: Yeah.

[00:15:32] Aaron: 2023 now. So we're, I mean, we could talk about this all day. We're talking about, what amount of.

[00:15:38] Aaron: Effort, time, you know, what's your sunk cost? you know, what are you bringing, like what is the show in and of itself, production, everything. we've been having this conversation, for how many years? Like 10, 15, 20, 20 years, like $5 has kind of been that staple and we've, in my opinion, found ourselves more and more out of touch kind of just rolls off the tongue, right?

[00:15:59] Aaron: It's like, oh, it's a [00:16:00] $5 show. and we, in my opinion, kind of find ourselves forgetting that the world has changed. for one, it's 2023, but you never really consider, All of the expense that goes into setting that show up. even for a local show, like somebody has to show up, unlock the place, run audio bands still need to show up.

[00:16:19] Aaron: Those bands still have put in time and effort into what they do. Hopefully they're putting effort into promoting it and, and you know, the whole nine. those people are still there showing up. Somebody's working the bar. The show needs to make money and that's a local band. touring to your point, you've probably got other people out on the road with you.

[00:16:36] Aaron: You've got transportation, accommodation insurance. on a touring show, if you're playing, somewhere, bigger than a bar, you've probably got security. So there are venue staff, you know, 900 million things we could ramble through and, $5 was not appropriate then.

[00:16:51] Aaron: And, You can make it happen now, but nobody's gonna be walking away with a, ton of money and the money that you do walk away with, it's not gonna be able to be [00:17:00] stretched nearly as far as it was in 2010. And, you know, if I remember that was difficult back then, playing $5 gigs and splitting everything between four bands in the house.

[00:17:09] James: one of the nice things about Monkey House specifically is that as far as I know, the house doesn't take a cut. They just take anyone under 21 pays an extra $5, which goes to the bar, which I find kind of ironic cuz I don't drink.

[00:17:20] James: it's like the bar is not getting anything for me, which I'm fine with that.

[00:17:24] James: I have several friends who don't drink and we go to shows there and we're all, we're all over 21, so we're getting in free and the bar gets nothing from us. I'm like, huh, I wonder if I just didn't show my ID once. I'm like, I'm over. But you know, would I show it like I'm not gonna drink?

[00:17:35] James: If they would believe me that, look, I'm 30, look, I have a receding hairline, like, don't charge me, but I'm not drinking anyway, so who cares That said, I think $10 is too cheap for local shows cuz we've been at $10 for like a decade for like a, average good price for a local show that should be 15 now, honestly, maybe even 20.

[00:17:54] James: Cuz if you think about it,

[00:17:56] James: back in

[00:17:56] James: uh, 2011 when I went to college, I could get a [00:18:00] burrito for $7 from Boloco. That's like $14 now. That's about doubled. So thank you. Inflation, my burrito budget needs to increase. Here's the thing, why are we still paying $10 for local shows when they were $10 a decade ago? That could easily be a $20 ticket now. But people do not want to pay for art. and I get it, people don't wanna pay more. At the same time when all the expenses increase, that means the bands have to figure out ways to cut costs, which means smaller productions, which means paying their staff less, which means the venue gets less, which means fewer shows because the venue can't say, Hey, we're gonna start charging $20 if people aren't gonna pay it.

[00:18:41] James: Now the problem for the audience, in my opinion, with cheap shows is that, like I was saying, they just don't value the art. But if it becomes normal across the board that local shows are 15 to $20, then it's not a problem anymore. Cuz everyone says, oh hey, like this is the new standard. We just gotta do this,

[00:18:56] Aaron: and they're gonna care about what they invest in.

[00:18:59] James: Yeah, [00:19:00] absolutely. Now we've seen this with band tees. It used to be that a $10 shirt is like, oh, that's cheap. You know, 15, 20. Okay, now I see a $20 shirt. I'm like, what's wrong with that?

[00:19:10] James: Is, is that on like the cheapest of Gudden materials? That's gonna be wicked uncomfortable and it rips in a month?

[00:19:15] James: I don't want that

[00:19:16] James: 25, 30. Sure, I'll spend that. If I like the band now I have too many band keys as it is, so I don't spend money on shirts that much. But that said, I would much rather spend more for a nice shirt than get a cheap shirt for $20 that's gonna fall apart. Or you know, also get a nice design. So if you have decent merch prices, make sure your ticket prices are in line. Cause if your shirts are 30 bucks and your ticket was $3, people are gonna say, wait. You're charging National Act prices for merch, but charging no name prices for entry. That makes zero sense. That's another issue for the audience.

[00:19:51] James: Now that all said, Aaron, we've spent a lot of time here harping on the problem with cheap shows. Let's dig into uh, why just increasing the price isn't [00:20:00] actually the best solution. And there's a couple issues here that we're going to talk about, not necessarily issues, but like subtopics. The first one is how to set pricing effectively. Other ways that you can increase revenue without, or in combination with increasing pricing and balancing your ticket price with affordability and what people are willing it to spend.

[00:20:18] James: So the first thing there is how to set pricing effectively. And Aaron, you and I both know this, at the biggest levels, the band is going to put together a budget for their tour and say, this is how much we need to break even. And that's going to basically be their minimum guarantee for those shows.

[00:20:33] James: They're gonna say, this is the average over the whole tour. This is how much we need minimum to get booked. And if the venue offers less than that, we're not playing there.

[00:20:41] James: That's their minimum guarantee. Now, maybe they have other types of deals. They might have a versus deal or a plus deal, or who knows what, but this is how much money they need to break even.

[00:20:50] James: And they're gonna look to get at least that much money for every single show. and so Aaron, in your experience, how often do you see local bands or regional bands doing [00:21:00] the math and then deciding how much they need to earn from each show?

[00:21:03] Aaron: in my experience, I'd like somebody to prove me wrong or to shine a light on something that I just haven't noticed. I don't think that I've ever seen, somebody who, I, rightfully so or not, would consider a local band doing that math before a show. And what I mean by that is, it's just somebody's putting something together.

[00:21:22] Aaron: There are some other bands on the bill that, you know, band X, likes or they're friends with and they, they want to have a good time and that makes sense. But I don't see that band do the math and we could waste a bunch of time here talking about, okay, well is this show local?

[00:21:38] Aaron: Like, you know, what other things make that show valuable for that band? Um, if, we're talking about the math I think regional bands do that a little, a little more when you're talking about traveling from, you know, Maine to mass, New York to Connecticut, When there's a little bit more of like an in your face, goal that the band's going to need to meet, or, the lift on the front [00:22:00] end is a little greater, then you start to see some people wake up and realize, okay, well in order for this show to be worth it, we need to do X, Y, or Z. But oftentimes traveling for a show is exciting enough for a band, and, and they may still.

[00:22:13] Aaron: Not break even. They may say, well, this is worth it to break into this new market. And then they might follow through. They might not.

[00:22:20] James: Yeah, definitely. locals don't do that. They're just like, oh, we can play for beer money. Okay, let's have fun. Let's go. Now, that's not a good way to set pricing effectively, and maybe it works if you don't have expenses. But think of it this way, at the very least, you're burning some gas to get there.

[00:22:36] James: wouldn't it be nice if you can be sure that you're going to make back enough to, put $10 of gas in the tank each person.

[00:22:42] Aaron: I would sincerely invite, you know, anybody who, who's listening, who's this is sort of flagging something in their brain. if youve had a recent show or if you have a show coming up where there's a little bit of travel involved, a little more than kind of, Cardiac, everything down the street locally.

[00:22:56] Aaron: Do the math there's nothing wrong with doing something like that[00:23:00] for fun, but I would sincerely encourage you to, kind of run the numbers on the back of the napkin just once, just to sort of set your bearings and sort of see, for your own education, like, oh wow, like the way that we're doing this, we're actually doing really well.

[00:23:14] Aaron: We're, we're making money and totally unexpected. Or, oh, there's this, you know, one pocket over here where like, that's really killing us. Like, then you might get excited and go, okay, well if, now that I've identified this one thing that's kind of hurting us a little bit, what can we do with the show before the show or after the show, to change that?

[00:23:31] Aaron: And don't think I'm the only nerd in this room. Maybe I'm the only nerd listening, but I, I sincerely doubt that. But That can kind of be fun when you sort of catch that one thing and you go, oh wow. Now I have the power to make a decision And then I can see how that decision might affect the outcome next time, whether it's adjusting pricing at the show or something that you're doing at the show with merchandise.

[00:23:50] Aaron: Any of that. So Captain Tangent here, but I'd sincerely invite anybody listening to, to do the math on the back of the napkin or in the Excel or whatever you have in front of you.

[00:23:58] James: Yeah, no, it's [00:24:00] not a tangent at all. I think that's really a good point, is try it. You know, maybe you'll see, oh, we're doing pretty well. Maybe we'll see, oh, we're losing money every time we play a show, even though it's only 20 minutes from our house. I also wanna discuss other ways that artists can increase revenue without increasing the ticket price.

[00:24:16] James: And that goes for the venue and promoter as well. So one thing that I like to see is merch bundles, cuz you're probably gonna do better on merch. If you say, Hey, one T-shirt for 25, 2 for 40 people like getting a deal. And you can even say, Hey, you're here with a friend, why don't you each get one and I'll give you the deal.

[00:24:34] James: we'll run it on one card. Why don't you can Venmo the other whatever, but we'll put it on one card, one transaction. You each get a shirt. How's that sound? And a lot of people will probably go for it if they see a good deal like that. So you're increasing revenue for yourself for the venues. monkey house, just brought in a pizza oven.

[00:24:51] James: If they had a vegan pizza, I would be buying food there. But as it is, I know a lot of people who do get pizza there and oh man, I really hope those are shut off cuz it's gonna be like 90 on Friday. [00:25:00] they don't have the pizza ovens going right next to

[00:25:02] Aaron: bet. I bet it'll be on, but it is very good.

[00:25:06] James: that's gonna be brutal.

[00:25:07] Aaron: But to your, to your point, like Yeah, especially if you're, you've traveled it all to that show, or, or you're selling merch to people who haven't bought merch before or come to a show before. you've cut somebody a deal. They feel like they've got a deal and now they're two people walking around with two shirts.

[00:25:20] James: Yeah, exactly. Which is free promo for you. Other things you can do like down at the underground, which is Vincent's venue. We've mentioned Vincent a few times. Why have I not had him on the podcast? I've been friends with the guy since before the podcast even started. Why have I not had Vincent on the show?

[00:25:35] James: Geez,

[00:25:36] Aaron: Oh my God, that'd be such a good idea.

[00:25:37] James: I am literally just now like, wait, why? Why haven't I had that? He's one of my best friends. anyway, at that venue, I convinced him to add a facility maintenance fee of just 50 cents into the settlement. What that means is that out of every ticket sold 50 cents goes directly to the venue as an expense, which covers like paper products, cleaning supplies.

[00:25:57] James: They get a bag of ice and fill it up a pitcher, [00:26:00] you know, they have disposable cups, all that stuff. So those are all expenses that he has instead of itemizing every single one of those expenses, which is, it'll be such a pain. Like, it's like, okay, we've used 23 plastic cups tonight and half a bag of ice.

[00:26:14] James: So that's this much. It's like, no 50 cents per person through the door. Super easy or, or rather per ticket sold. Comps don't get charged that fee. getting into the weeds here, but 50 cents per person, who buys a ticket

[00:26:25] James: totally valid. So far, haven't had any bands get upset at that because honestly, that's a fair cost.

[00:26:31] James: I'm sure the bands wouldn't want to have to check receipts, which at this level, none of the bands really even know what's going on. It's like, here's the settlement sheet, and they go, okay. fine by me. I keep things honest, but honestly, I, I would love to see bands pay more attention and actually look at those numbers to make sure things are legit, So Aaron, I, I know you're a numbers and spreadsheets geek just like me.

[00:26:51] James: You have huge spreadsheets. How many local venues actually come to you with a settlement afterwards, and show you the expenses and why they've made [00:27:00] deductions?

[00:27:00] Aaron: how many local venues?

[00:27:01] James: When you go to play a show, and we're not talking about like higher ground, we're talking about like the bars and that kind of stuff. How many of them actually are ready to show you how they got to the figure that they're paying you?

[00:27:12] Aaron: I think the underground is prepared.

[00:27:14] Aaron: but

[00:27:15] James: That's because I'm in charge of the settlement.

[00:27:17] Aaron: Yeah. outside of that I'd say next to none of them, knowing that there are a whole slew of. Spaces that people could consider, venues that I've, it wouldn't make sense for me to go and play the music I play there. I definitely don't have a good handle on the whole picture, but I, I'd suspect that they'd probably fall, pretty close to this too.

[00:27:34] Aaron: that's not something that they can't put together if, you discuss that beforehand. But I think end of the day, their thought in their defense is, we're a bar. we sell wine and we sell pizza. You're, you are part of the equation, not the equation. they're kind of coming at the evening from, a different angle than you might be as an artist.

[00:27:52] Aaron: But that said, maybe that's saying something about spaces, spaces available locally to play and whether they're, priorities align [00:28:00] with yours.

[00:28:00] James: Yeah.

[00:28:01] James: well, here's what I would argue, and this will easily piss people off if you go about it the wrong way. But when you get an offer, you know, if it's not a guarantee, if they're doing a door deal and they have expenses to deduct, just say, we agree to these terms, but we need receipts or invoices for all expenses you deduct. And if they agree to that, when they come to pay, you say, okay, I just wanna see the receipts. They say no. And you say, okay, we're not allowing those deductions. If you show us the receipts, that's totally fine. That's valid. if your sound engineer's getting 40 bucks, where's the invoice from them?

[00:28:28] James: we told you this in advance. If you pull this without any notice, you're never gonna get asked back. That's a bad move. But if you make it clear in advance, like saying, yeah, we're fine with these deductions. If we see receipts, then you have every right to ask for those receipts and you might walk with more money if they aren't ready to show that.

[00:28:44] James: Now, certain things, again, like with the underground, we have that 50 cent fee. There's no receipts for that cuz it's just built in, like it's put in the settlement. Like, hey, this is the fee 50 cents per person, there's no receipt for that. Because again, it would be such a pain to account for ice and paper towels and cups and all [00:29:00] that stuff.

[00:29:00] James: But within reason, like if all of a sudden the venue says hey, we're gonna charge you for uh, towels that you used to mop up the stage. no, that that wasn't a show cost that wasn't put in the offer, which was 25% of door, you didn't mention expenses. it's a tough line to tow cause you don't want to upset them so much that you don't get invited back.

[00:29:19] James: But there are ways to stand up for yourself and make more money on these shows without necessarily. Increasing ticket prices. Now I'm still for increasing those ticket prices. But I mean, just think, Aaron, if you had to ballpark, how much do you think a band could increase their revenue if they just stood up for themselves a little bit,

[00:29:37] Aaron: How much could a ban increase their revenue if they stood up for themselves? if standing up for themselves means,

[00:29:43] James: not allowing stupid deductions.

[00:29:46] Aaron: through

[00:29:46] James: actually just like checking the numbers in the first place.

[00:29:49] Aaron: Yeah. I think, communication, following through before a show, making sure you do communicate about all those things.

[00:29:55] Aaron: And then running a settlement of any kind after the [00:30:00] show, whether it's sitting down in a back office with a couple laptops or whether it's, taking the. Promoter into some quiet space and having a 15 second discussion. It doesn't have to be formal. I can't say how much a band could save immediately, but if they start doing those things consistently at every show, I think what they'd find is that, the outcome of those relationships that they have in service of shows.

[00:30:24] Aaron: So with promoters and with the venues themselves will be more reliable. They'll be more of a respect that goes both ways. holding each other accountable. Just because you have not run through a settlement in a certain space with a certain somebody before doesn't mean that that person or, or the people who work for the space aren't completely used to doing that.

[00:30:43] Aaron: And that's not to say that those people are taking advantage of somebody who doesn't know that's. Something that should be done. They might think that you're just super loosey-goosey, flexible, and, and don't care to do it. So, it'd be hard to put a, a, a number on how much somebody could save.

[00:30:57] Aaron: But I guarantee you will [00:31:00] find that it feels different. Consistently show to show. It'll feel more buttoned up if you take the time to run through settlement. I just have that discussion no matter how, rigid or or loose it is with whoever's putting your show on with you. And they'll know to, expect you to ask as you should, even if it's, band X, nobody promoted the show.

[00:31:19] Aaron: It was horrible. Here's your $10. you've had that conversation, and you've learned something from it. Or it could be, this show is awesome, here's what the show made, here's the breakdown of what goes to the venue, what goes to the band, I, I think the key is just having that conversation and.

[00:31:34] Aaron: experience will be, better, more consistently and, and you'll, you'll avoid getting scammed in the future. that's where you'll save the money, you'll get that practice in and you'll know what to discuss.

[00:31:45] James: I agree. And, and that's the practice note you make there is so important because when you do start playing these larger venues, promoters have tricks up their sleeves. There's gonna be stuff that you don't understand. But having it just in a spreadsheet in front of you, you can look at it and say, explain this, may [00:32:00] explain it.

[00:32:00] James: And if it makes sense, great. If it doesn't say, explain it as if I'm five. They'll probably appreciate your humor and be like, okay, well we take the money to pay for this and that's why you don't get that money. and maybe you then say, why are we paying for that? You know, why, why are we paying the bartender's salary?

[00:32:17] James: you say, oh yeah, makes sense, like you gave us catering. So it comes out of our cut. I get it. to be clear, anybody who's listening and doesn't know any stuff like catering, that does come out of your pay, you don't have to pay for it, but it comes out of your pay. So if you don't get paid for the show, might be cuz you had too much of a catering budget.

[00:32:35] James: I've never seen anyone end up with a bill for it. I've heard of that with bar tabs, horror stories there. Like, let's say they, they spend a hundred dollars on getting catering from MO'S or something, And your share is $150, well then they're gonna look at it and be like, okay, cool.

[00:32:48] James: Your share is 150. We have the catering, we pay you 50. and that's assuming that catering is the only show cost. way oversimplifying it. And typically it would be, catering would be split amongst all the other bands before they decide [00:33:00] how much each band gets, blah, blah, blah.

[00:33:01] James: So super oversimplifying it, but that's kind of how it works. Now, one last thing I wanna talk about before we get into some pricing examples, which we've already kind of talked about, is balancing the ticket price with what people can afford and the will to spend, and I'm probably gonna get some flack for this, Saying we want $5 tickets so people can afford it. Don't do that. I do not care at all. If somebody honestly can't afford it. Well, you know what? They're gonna show up and they're probably gonna buy an $8 beer anyway. So let them pay $15 for a ticket and they don't have to drink. if somebody honestly cannot afford it, if they are facing problems, get 'em in, hook 'em up, put 'em on the guest list.

[00:33:42] James: But if you see him buying a drink, be like, yo, get out.

[00:33:45] James: You couldn't pay $10 to see us. You can pay $15 to see us, but you can pay $8 for a beer. That's not okay. We got you in with the understanding that you don't have any money, and we're happy to do that. But then if you're gonna just go spend that on beer instead, we're not down with that.

[00:33:59] James: finish your beer and [00:34:00] get out. Because at that point you're being taken advantage of it. And that's why I think The difference between $5 and $10, if that's such a thing that somebody truly can't afford that, just get 'em in. Be that person that's, Hey, like, Hey, you know what? We heard you're struggling.

[00:34:12] James: We would love to have you at the show as our guest. Just come on in, hang out. Have a good time,

[00:34:17] Aaron: I, I'm a big fan of exactly that, sure there are people out there who, who may take advantage of a situation, but, what I try to believe is that, those people are, are few and far between when compared to the people who are, well intentioned.

[00:34:29] Aaron: I'm a huge fan of, of what you're talking about, of, it might be your Tuesday night, but it's this audience member's Saturday night. And they're, I forgot my wallet, I, you know, whatever it is, I'm a really big fan of, trying to foster a welcoming environment and everybody's welcome.

[00:34:44] Aaron: we're not looking to exclude anybody. So there are always those people who try to take advantage of the situation. But, it's not that, and you, you get somebody in they'll remember it and they might come back and, pay next time or, or buy a T-shirt next time. Download some music, tell their friends.

[00:34:57] Aaron: But I, I wanted to touch on something that you mentioned [00:35:00] really quickly. you've referenced merch obviously few times. Something that always. pops up in my head when I think about like the $5 ticket thing. feels like it's related in some way. If you think about like merch items, right?

[00:35:11] Aaron: If you're a band and you're setting up your merch, next to somebody else who's setting up their merch, you're not going to walk in front of your table, look to see what this other person is pricing their shirt as and then undercut them by two or $3, I would hope that nobody does that.

[00:35:28] Aaron: although I don't think, the whole idea of like, oh, we're gonna set our ticket price low to try to attract attention. It's, it's not the same. You're not directly trying to like, undercut, or steal the audience away from another show. But, the thinking is the same in my opinion.

[00:35:43] Aaron: It's, we're gonna price something cheap. thinking that. that's gonna make what we're offering, attractive to somebody. And there, there's something to be said for, kind of what we're talking about here, pricing something affordably, but appropriately, if somebody pays for something, they're going to value it a little bit more.

[00:35:59] Aaron: [00:36:00] They're, they're gonna feel invested in it. And I think the trick is, walking that line between, you don't wanna be a band for two years and start feeling like it's appropriate to price your shows at 25 or $3. depending on who you, who you are, maybe that's, exactly the thing to do.

[00:36:15] Aaron: But chances are, if you're, you know, a DOI band, that's not the thing to do. But that said, we're talking about here is like, recognize what goes into the show on your part and on everybody else's part. And, don't undervalue yourself. it's totally walking a tight row.

[00:36:29] Aaron: But the only way you can learn and, and figure out what's appropriate is to try different things. you stick with that $5 thing for 10 or 15 years, like you're not gonna go anywhere. if you're counting on ticket prices and money from shows, that's not going to be something that will be helpful to you.

[00:36:46] James: Yeah, agreed. And there's something else I wanna touch on there is you're talking about not undercutting people on merch. Sometimes you'll play a show. The headliner will have merch minimums. I hate that. That shows that they are [00:37:00] insecure. They think that the opener is gonna sell more merch by being cheaper.

[00:37:04] James: It's like, no, dude. The people are there for you. And if the opener, like if people decide that they like it and wanna buy merch, let 'em buy it at that price as an opener. I would always suggest, you know, if you wanna put something on sale once in a while, you're low on stock or whatever, that's fine.

[00:37:19] James: But have set prices show to show. That's what we do with nerves. We actually, this is an outdated version, but we made a merch If you're, uh, on YouTube, you can see it here. I'm holding it up it's a Canva template. Not gonna lie, but we have all our prices on here and we have some that are laminated and people can walk up to our merch stand and pick it up and look at our merch menu and it shows our pricing. Now that is not something that I've ever seen any other band do. They'll have like a sign up or something. But just like this menu is like, wait, this is gonna be so fun. Let's give it a shot.

[00:37:50] James: And from the lady at Staples who laminated it to the people who have seen it at shows, everyone's been like, this is such a cool idea.

[00:37:57] James: I love this. that made me realize, like, you know, [00:38:00] if nerves ever plays a show where there's a merch minimum, I'm just gonna be like, Hey, like we're not trying to undercut you. I swear we have these prices. Can you give us permission to run with these prices? This is our standard pricing. We're not trying to undercut you.

[00:38:14] James: If not, that's fine. But like, gimme a dry erase marker so we can adjust these menus please, cuz they're laminated. So we can just draw on it and then wipe it off. Because I'm not gonna read you the whole, the menus just for one show. If I do like a dry erase, that's fine, but I'm not gonna make new menus.

[00:38:28] James: Especially like what if we show up day of and they don't tell us until day of. that's on them then. that all said,

[00:38:34] James: I love that point you added there. I wanna talk about some examples of good pricing versus bad pricing at bars, clubs, and then larger shows. for the most part, Aaron, I feel like we've been harping on bar shows you know, that's $3, not enough, $5, not enough. 10, eh, 15 or 20 I would say is probably the maximum I would play for a bar show cuz there's not gonna be much production. venue is not great for sound. The sound [00:39:00] engineer, and don't get me wrong, I know some great engineers who work at bars like, river up at Monkey House, she's great.

[00:39:06] James: But I've heard other engineers at that venue that leave a little bit To be desired. Let's put it that way

[00:39:11] Aaron: Yeah. I think kinda what you're, you're hinting at is there's, that minimum don't undersell yourself, but. You also kinda have to be realistic and, and to your point, you know, level of production, like what can you do in a certain space and, and what's normal for a certain space. So, if we're talking about a $3 show, it's, it's kind of just like, let people in at that point.

[00:39:30] Aaron: gonna buy merch.

[00:39:30] James: I would rather do a free show than $3.

[00:39:33] Aaron: But at the same time, I don't know that I would spend much more than $15 to go see a, a band there. It would depend on the band and, and what they could do there.

[00:39:41] Aaron: But it, sort of, balancing out, making sure you're not underselling yourself, but also not sort of overvaluing what you have to offer in a certain setting too. So there, there's definitely a thing as, charging too much for sure.

[00:39:55] James: Yeah, agreed. Like I say $20, I'm thinking like off with their heads, keep flying. [00:40:00] underground big Yeah, like keep flying. Honestly, one of the best live shows I've ever seen they played to like 40 people. I am definitely gonna see them and I'm trying to book them for uh, the underground.

[00:40:10] James: We'll see if that happens. Fingers crossed.

[00:40:12] Aaron: Oh

[00:40:12] James: but if it's an all local bill, no way. Like $15. I'm okay with 15, but I wouldn't pay more for all locals unless it's somebody I really Like if it's a friend or something, maybe I'll do it. You know, for Sub Sam I might do it, but if it's for. A bunch of no name bands where I don't personally know any of the members, and they're just like, oh, this is something to do on a Friday night.

[00:40:28] James: I probably would say, eh, I'll catch 'em next time when it's 10 or 15. So I agree, like 20 is a stretch, but if the bands are worth it, the bands are worth it.

[00:40:36] Aaron: hundred percent always depends on context. For sure.

[00:40:38] James: dude, if, AFI or Inner Shakar played monkey house, which would never happen, I'd pay like 80 bucks to see that. I'd be like, this is gonna suck, because the sound's gonna be terrible. Especially for inner Shakar. They use so many bass elements and synths and stuff like it, it would honestly be awful unless they brought in their own pa,

[00:40:54] Aaron: spend that much just to see how that unfolds at that point.

[00:40:58] James: Yeah. And, and honestly, the total [00:41:00] sidetrack I saw Shakar three weeks ago in a 500 cap uh, Barry Ballroom down in New York City. Really fun show. it was all fly dates, mostly rented gear. They didn't even have their little, they call 'em Sparky. It's a synth that has like a radar display on it.

[00:41:13] James: They didn't even bring him over from the UK for this tour, cause it was like three dates. production was good, but it wasn't Shaka, from what I'm used to. Then they headlined, uh, slam dunk this past weekend, like Saturday, Sunday, over in the uk. for reference, this is the band who sells 10 to 12,000 tickets in the uk.

[00:41:29] James: They are huge over there. Here they'll sell 500 at Slam dunk. They have like, brand new stuff. They have pyro, they have video walls. They have like, is this the same band that I paid like bucks for to see in a 500 cap two weeks ago? It's incredible and I so badly wanna see them in the UK cuz I know it's just next level and I wanna see them with this full production.

[00:41:48] James: And don't get me wrong, I love their smaller shows, but I just, I love a big production. it's just so cool to see. Anyway. Speaking of bigger productions, 500 caps, let's talk about some clubs. Again, disregarding the [00:42:00] 99 cent, low dose shows or anything like that for a club, if a ticket is $10, I'm suspicious.

[00:42:06] James: 15 to 30. Sure, that's fine. Like if it's over 30, it better be a band that I really enjoy, I would pay 50 bucks if it's one of my favorite bands in a larger club. Sure. I've seen the differences here, and this is where you kind of also have to consider the ticket fees. Cause a lot of these venues are gonna have fees on top.

[00:42:23] James: So maybe people say, yeah, you know what, I'll pay $45 to see this band and then there's $20 in fees and say, oh, I, well I won't pay 65 to see 'em. and that's a really tough spot to put people in, especially when the artists aren't getting any of those fees. That's all going to the ticket provider to the state.

[00:42:40] James: If there's sales tax, the venue might get some of that, but typically it's all going towards the box office company that's running it. So see tickets, ticket, mask, or whatever. So you do have to keep that in mind, which unfortunately might mean that you have to price your show a little lower than you want to.

[00:42:55] James: Just make sure that you're still breaking. Even now, we all know those [00:43:00] big acts who, sell arenas and then do a surprise club show for like $200. We're not even gonna talk about that. We're talking about bands who regularly play clubs. Personally, I would say somewhere in the 15 to 30 range for anything below like 300 cap, above 300, you can be looking at like, 20 to 40, maybe 50.

[00:43:17] James: If it's a large club, we're talking like a, thousand, 1500 cap. Above that you're really kind of talking about theaters, which, there's clubs that hold 2,500, 3000, but that's kind of overlapping with your theater tours, in my opinion. As somebody who's done theater tour, Aaron, I'm, I'm sure you have some thoughts on that.

[00:43:34] Aaron: Yeah, I was actually just gonna jump in and say we talked, earlier in the episode about scaling, as an artist, as a band. we're kind of circling back around to that. But on, on the other end where, my work with James Taylor, you know, who's primarily a, an arena like amphitheater act, or anybody else.

[00:43:50] Aaron: I mean, enter Ari, we just got done talking about them. That's the perfect example. There are some instances where, okay, I'm gonna roll with arenas or large theaters for this tour because [00:44:00] that's what I can do. Or, you know, whether that's. Just what I can do, or that's based on like where this tour or run their shows will be held.

[00:44:06] Aaron: But then for other reasons, whether it's, I'm going somewhere else like Venture Shakar did, coming over here for a couple of dates or whether it's, I'm just gonna do a run of smaller production shows and, and sort of treat it as a, like an intimate experience. the used I think

[00:44:20] James: EMO

[00:44:21] Aaron: sort of like an intimate, like theater. Run a while back, you know, and they brought in like a cello percussion.

[00:44:26] Aaron: So matter like kinda why you're doing what you're doing. Yeah. When you get into like, larger clubs and theaters, like, then you start to get into, okay, well I might not see act in this space usually. But maybe they're rolling through this theater or whatever it is, purposefully, and, you know, they're bringing like an intimate set.

[00:44:47] Aaron: They're, you know, bringing a different arrangement, whatever it is. Maybe it's intentional. And, you know, in that case I'd say I, I wouldn't be surprised if the tickets are as expensive as they might be in an arena somewhere. it's sort of like [00:45:00] a, the room is set dressing at that point.

[00:45:02] James: Yeah, absolutely. And you also have to keep in mind that the bigger the show is, like talking about Enter shakar, their production bands do typically have to charge more for larger shows, even though you're thinking well, but there's more people, the costs are higher too. The band might not be walking away with as much money as you think you say, oh well, you know, there's 10 times as many people.

[00:45:19] James: It's like, okay, but there's also 10 times as many security. The stage production is massive in comparison. everything scales, as you said, Aaron. So those costs will be higher. And honestly, I was very impressed when I saw the AFI seeing the sorrow show a few months ago that floor tickets in the fan club presale were $70.

[00:45:37] Aaron: Is that the, uh, Kia over in la?

[00:45:39] James: Yep. The Kia Forum. And so like 16, 17, 18,000 tickets, something like that. you know, after the fan club presale, they turned on that Ticketmaster dynamic pricing. shout out to AFI for not allowing that for the fan club resale. And I actually, I had floor tickets for that, but I ended up sitting with some friends.

[00:45:59] James: Uh, one of my friends [00:46:00] is in a wheelchair and Two other friends happened to be sitting right next to him, one row down. So I was like, you can have a companion, right? Mind if I just sit here and was like, with three good friends, I'm like, this is fine. I have a better view than if I was on the floor anyway.

[00:46:12] James: Like I'm further away. But I can see they had a huge video wall and all that. I was like, wow, they really went out on the production. They also had Deftones lighting rig. They're on the same management. So Deftones has this like big triangle over the stage and like, oh, that's sick why build a new rig when you have the same management?

[00:46:27] James: Just be like, yo, Deftones, L l c, can we rent this for afi? Cool, thanks. great show. But all that production, I'm sure that those production costs were coming outta the people who were paying $600 for a floor ticket, not the people who paid 70 bucks for a floor ticket. the fan club.

[00:46:41] James: That was a favor. You guys get in, pay, but it's relatively cheap. Like honestly, I was expecting $200 tickets for that. 70 bucks for floor. That's amazing. good on them. So speaking of those larger shows, a floor ticket for an arena show 70 bucks, that is cheap.

[00:46:57] Aaron: That is cheap.

[00:46:58] Aaron: Always depends on who you're [00:47:00] seeing and what you're doing, but that's cheap.

[00:47:01] James: Absolutely. let's be honest, the last couple years of Warp Tour tickets were like $80, and that was for Warp Tour, which typically was one of the cheapest shows out there. So an arena band charging $70 per ticket, and again, this was only for the fan club presale. After that as dynamic pricing, we were looking, 300 to $700 per floor ticket.

[00:47:19] James: Um, Probably people paying even more than that if they uh, didn't pay attention very well. But, anywhere between, I would say like a hundred to 200, maybe $300 for a floor seat is. Roughly average, depending on who you see. If you're talking about somebody like Taylor Swift who's doing stadiums, those prices get insane.

[00:47:38] James: But let's talk about like your average arena show. all Time Low is doing arenas these days, smaller ones, but still um, I could see Rise Against Doing an arena to be honest. they've done uh, amphitheaters, co-head lining with Deftones to bring up Deftones again. That was a fun show.

[00:47:51] James: I worked that one. Yeah, and I got to see most of Rise cuz Deftones finished first, so I got all my work done. I was like, oh, rise is playing. Cool, let's go, let's go Watch Rise. Um, [00:48:00] those arena bands like System of A Down, also on Velvet Hammer, I'm just thinking of all uh, the Velvet Hammer bands, corn, like these bands, they're probably gonna charge somewhere in that like 70 to a hundred, $150 range for floor tickets. I don't see them charging.

[00:48:13] James: 200, 300 plus because that's not who they are. they're big enough to sell that many tickets, but they're not big enough to demand a premium price for those shows. Now, I, I might be totally off base on this cause I haven't actually looked at their pricing, but that's just an educated guess.

[00:48:29] James: I'm saying that those bands are probably in that price range, but there's also bands. I remember uh, I think it might've been Shine Down, it is one of those butt rock bands. About 10 years ago they did an amphitheater tour and their thing was that every single ticket in the venue is $20. It doesn't matter if you're floor, seats, lawn, whatever, it's $20.

[00:48:47] James: And

[00:48:48] James: I think that's really cool. Now, I imagine that they had a pretty scaled down production for that. That is literally just the band on this huge stage with not much else. Probably looks kind of wacky, but that's still really cool saying, Hey, you know what? We know we're [00:49:00] gonna sell those floor seats first, and then people are gonna get those and then they'll, back towards lawn.

[00:49:04] James: And no matter what, every single person in this room, unless they went for aftermarket resale, they paid 20 bucks and that's what they needed. They figured that into their budget and said, Hey, we can make this work. That's really cool. I think, and I'm not saying bands should do that, especially now, I would say make it 40, not 20, cuz it's 10 years later.

[00:49:21] James: But it is a kind of cool look to see a band that says, we want our fans to be able to see us, so we're gonna cap every single ticket at this price.

[00:49:28] Aaron: I'd be curious to see how, how quickly those, tickets sold. That's a really cool story and yeah, I'd imagine that floor would've filled up

[00:49:34] James: I wish I could remember, like I said, I think it was Shine Down. I wish I could remember which band it is, so I could look it up. honestly, that brings me to one last point here, Aaron, which I think we should really reinforce, which is that the artist ultimately can say yes or no to the pricing.

[00:49:48] James: If somebody wants to book you for a show, You have the option to say yes or no. And if they don't know what that ticket price is gonna be yet, just say, Hey, what are you gonna charge for tickets? maybe they offer you 25%. It's like, okay, 25% [00:50:00] of what? Ask them. And if they don't know, just be like, we need to crunch the numbers on this.

[00:50:03] James: maybe we can take 25, maybe we can't. If it's a $5 ticket, we need 80%. If it's a $15 ticket, 25 is fine. make that part of your negotiations because I see a lot of bands just saying yes and then they don't even know what the show costs. And that's not a good thing, in my opinion.

[00:50:19] Aaron: Yeah. another reason to pay attention to that is your fan base will assume that that is something that comes directly from you. You know, whether or not we're talking about people who, who know better, the first thought in people's minds will be, this is a def tone show. This is what they're charging.

[00:50:37] Aaron: Or this is a, your band's show, this is what your band's charging. Whether or not it, I mean, it's obviously always a collaborative decision or, or it should be, but that's, that's something to keep in in mind too. And, and another reason why it's important for you to be a part of that conversation as, as much as you can be, even if you already know what the answer is going to be.

[00:50:55] Aaron: It's worth just like kind of getting in that habit, getting in the rhythm of through some [00:51:00] sort of settlement. no matter how simple it might be. Get in the rhythm of having that conversation. Pre-show, pre-announcement, and make sure that you're in alignment with regard to the, the ticket pricing.

[00:51:10] Aaron: Cuz if it's way outta whack, like I shouldn't be, charging $20 for a, a ticket. So I'm gonna step in and, and say something about that. Or I shouldn't be charging $5 for a ticket because of the opposite. I'm gonna step in and say something about that.

[00:51:23] James: Yeah, absolutely. Aaron, I think that is a perfect mic drop moment to uh, wrap this episode up on. think we've hit some really key topics here. One last question I want you to shout out where people can learn more about you and Sub Sam.

[00:51:34] Aaron: learn about me. I am Erin Ris on Instagram. I think that's the, the first time I've ever said that. and, uh, as far as Sub Sam uh, it's suburban Samurai music, and all the platforms. And James, I don't know if we, gave Falling Knife a shout out, but nerves, dropped any nep early May.

[00:51:52] Aaron: Uh, I guess you don't have to be a time traveler for that one. It should still be up. But yeah, search on, on all your socials or wherever you typically find your [00:52:00] music for a falling knife from nerves N V R S that should be out there right now.

[00:52:04] James: Yes. Good call on that. Shout out. I did not think of that. That will be in all of these links will be in the show notes at Bandhive rocks slash 1 8 8. And now we're gonna get these 88 mile per hour blues outta here. So Aaron, thanks so much for coming back on the show, man.

[00:52:18] James: Super stoked to have you here and looking forward to playing with you in a couple weeks and watching your show in like three days.

[00:52:23] Aaron: same. Thanks.