[00:00:00] James: Welcome to episode 213 of the Bandhive Podcast. It is time for another episode of the Bandhive Podcast. My name is James Cross, and I help independent artists tour smart. Today, I have my very special friend, Matt Bacon, who speaks German with me on a pretty much weekly basis. How are you today, Matt?

[00:00:18] Matt: I'm good. Am I supposed to be talking in like a radio voice while we do this?

[00:00:22] James: You can if you want to. I mean, you don't have to. That's up to you. We are going to be on the radio.

[00:00:26] Matt: you have a really good radio voice. This is very surreal. just for people listening, I found out 90 seconds ago that this guy I talk to every week is on the radio.

[00:00:34] James: and the funny thing here is that the past two episodes we've done with you were also on the radio, and I read that intro the same way since, like, episode four. So,

[00:00:43] Matt: hungover. Anyway,

[00:00:46] James: yeah. Well, anyway, Matt, welcome back. the third episode. Before we get into it, I want to shout out the past two episodes you've done. If people haven't heard those yet, or if you heard them but it was, you know, two years ago, and you want to re [00:01:00] listen, it's number 53, Getting Signed. The most common types of record deals, Matt Bacon of Dropout Media.

[00:01:06] James: You can find that at bandhive. rocks. com. 53 and number 1 0 6, 1 of the most powerful and misunderstood tools available to you. Matt Bacon of Dropout Media, and you can find that at band hive rocks slash 1 0 6. Now, fun fact, Matt and I are both incredibly disappointed in me today because ,

[00:01:25] James: 53 was the first episode. 106 is the second episode, and that is exactly double of 53. For those of you who aren't just doing math in your head automatically, 53 times 2 is 106. This episode is 213. You know what twice 106 is? 212. We missed it by that much. We would have doubled it again.

[00:01:45] James: We could have kept it going, and then we would have had to have you on episode like 424, we're probably not going to get there since the podcast is ending. But it would have been nice if we had had that number 212 episode right there, so. everyone send the hate mail to uh, Bandhive, PO Box 213, [00:02:00] Southberry, Vermont yeah.

[00:02:02] James: Wait! Which is this episode number?! My PO Box is this episode number! Ha

[00:02:07] Matt: You made it. You made it to the P. O. Box number. That's cool.

[00:02:10] James: I literally just realized that. I was like, wait a second. That is too funny. Anyway, Matt, it is a pleasure to have you back here. We're gonna talk about something else that we haven't talked about before in our past interviews.

[00:02:21] James: But before we get there Can you give us the elevator pitch of who you are and what you do?

[00:02:26] Matt: Sure. So, Basically, I am a music marketer and manager. A lot of you probably know me from, my videos on Instagram, Bacon Spits, where I wave a cigar around and give band advice. Five times a day, where it's really just like anything and everything about being in a band from, you know, touring to starting out to recording to whatever, just drawing from a lot of my experience, you know, again, managing artists like Escuela Grind and Autumn Kings and Capra.

[00:02:53] Matt: But also doing marketing for a ton of artistseverything from like Boy Genius and Mitski, to Cannibal Corpse and Killswitch [00:03:00] Engage, just all over the map. You know, primarily metal, but, you know, more and more pop stuff these days. when I was a teenager, I started a blog with my friend Heroin Dan, and then it sort of got out of hand, like I started like running a record label in high school and doing all this other stuff, and that was really cool.

[00:03:15] Matt: And then, you know, just by keeping saying yes, I ended up getting a PR job, dropped out of college for that. And then when that ended, I turned around and a lot of those clients were like, Hey, can you keep giving us marketing advice? And then I did. And then it's only sort of Evolved and gotten bigger from there.

[00:03:30] James: have to shout out that, a lot of times, if I'm talking to a friend who's also in music, I'm like, Oh yeah, do you follow Matt Bake? And they're like, I don't know who that is. I'm like, the cigar guy. Oh yeah, I've seen him. I know his stuff. the brand absolutely works. ha

[00:03:44] Matt: I've had multiple female friends start dating dudes who casually mentioned my content, and then they were like, I know him. Hehehehehehe because it's a very dude centric audience.

[00:03:56] James: I mean, that comes with the metal world. And I mean, unfortunately, the music world [00:04:00] in general

[00:04:00] Matt: Yeah, I was gonna say, I feel like it's more of that, but, anyway.

[00:04:03] James: that's too funny. But, today we're here to talk about one of the things you mentioned, which is artist management. Because, like you said, you have Esquilagrand, you have Autumn Kings, and you have Capra.

[00:04:13] James: you probably have others, or had others at some point.

[00:04:16] James: I know you're focusing on those three right now. What does managing artists entail for you and your team?

[00:04:22] Matt: having headaches all of the time. No. I mean, although that is a big piece of it. I think that, every artist kinda needs something different out of a manager. Right? Which is to say, some artists just need, like, business partner, Some artists need their hands held on a lot of things, some artists need their hands held only on a few things.

[00:04:42] Matt: Y'know what I mean? And it really varies on an artist by artist basis. Right? So there's certain things that I'm, you know, super deep in the weeds on for Escuela that I don't even have to worry about for Autumn Kings. And vice versa. and also because every artist's career and [00:05:00] journey, which is such a corny thing to say, but, like, Every artist is looking at, like, a different path in their lives.

[00:05:06] Matt: Do And I think you just have to, like Accept that, you know, then you build around that, right? Cause really, in sort of it's idealized state, the way it works is, to use a really corporate metaphor, the artist is like the creative director.

[00:05:20] Matt: Right? Like when you look at like really high level bands, like that's usually how it works. It's like, the artist is the person creating the product, and they're the founder, and so fundamentally, like, they're in charge, and the manager is just, like, un executive.

[00:05:34] James: yeah, the manager is kind of like the big picture. They

[00:05:37] Matt: Yeah, exactly.

[00:05:39] James: goal. This is how we're going to get there. Now it's up to you to execute this.

[00:05:42] Matt: but again, you have to kind of figure that out on each level with different people. You know, I also think that there's a level of trust you need, right? If you're gonna let someone really like have that, if you think about the level of power I have over like Escuela Grime, for example, just in terms of the [00:06:00] fact that like I have power of attorney, I think, I have all their social security numbers, I have all their passports, that's a lot you're giving to some dude.

[00:06:09] Matt: Do you know what I'm saying? obviously, you know, I'm not gonna fuck around with it, but like, you know, you're putting up all that stuff, plus you're, trusting them with, you know, your career and your art and your everything that you pour all your time and energy and emotion and sadness into. And I think you really have to just, treat that with respect, you have to treat the level of faith you're getting with a really high degree of respect and gratitude, you know, and realize that, that's what this is.

[00:06:35] James: they don't have that trust in you as a manager, then they're going to second guess decisions. They're not going to cooperate necessarily on the things that they should cooperate on,

[00:06:43] Matt: yeah, and it's like, on some level, the artist needs to be pushing back because the manager cannot be the one changing up the brand and stuff, you know, the artist has to remain in the driver's seat. figuring out that balance is tricky, and again, it really varies artist to [00:07:00] artist.

[00:07:00] Matt: Because I have artists I work with who just want to, like, sit in the studio and have someone negotiate publishing deals all day. Do you know what I mean? That I have other artists who, like, I'm basically the tour manager, remotely. So it's really figuring out where is that gonna lie in each particular case.

[00:07:14] James: one thing I think is important to highlight there, too, is we kind of pivot into from what you do to what artists should be doing for themselves if they don't have a manager, is that ultimately, even with a manager, the artist is still responsible for doing what they need to do. The manager doesn't just do everything that's not music.

[00:07:32] Matt: Yeah.

[00:07:32] James: still responsible for helping with many things. I was going to say certain things, but realistically it's many things.

[00:07:38] Matt: and it's also, like,

[00:07:40] Matt: the best manager only works with one band. But that's almost never the case. You know, and you have to kind of realize, like, where do I sit in this whole thing?

[00:07:48] James: Yeah, and ultimately, the levels that we're talking right now, that wouldn't be financially sustainable for a manager to only work with. maybe if you're managing Justin Bieber, Taylor Swift, [00:08:00] something like that. Yeah, you can manage one artist and make a good living off of it. Probably a great living. But, if we're talking about independent artists or artists who have smaller label deals, you can't live off of that as a manager. You can't live off of that as a band either, realistically, which is unfortunate. But, when it comes down to artists who don't have a team, which are the most important tasks you think that they should focus on that would traditionally be handled by a manager?

[00:08:27] Matt: I think that early on you just want to be focusing on the community build, everything else is gonna come with time, you know, but really if you're focusing on building community and you're able to like respond quickly to emails. Everything else is gonna get easier from there.

[00:08:42] Matt: And it's funny, cause like, that's like the big thing that really fucks people up, is they like, cannot answer emails quickly, and they're just not invested in the community. But like, the thing is, No one is going to do that community work for you. You know, as cool as your manager is, like, you still need to be out there doing the thing. You know, and I [00:09:00] think,

[00:09:00] James: going to have the connection to fans that you can foster.

[00:09:03] Matt: yeah, exactly. And it's like, how do you lean into that, right? Because like, with Escuela, like they're incredible at building community. And this is like part of why I like them. Like before I started managing them.

[00:09:13] Matt: you know, they were already the inspiration for countless bacon spits. to me it's just like, okay, I can build community for them, but like, no one is gonna be as good at that as them being like goofy stoner kids, making friends with their fans directly.

[00:09:26] Matt: Like, that's something that will never go away. so here's the thing I think that people don't understand, is like, when you're good at the community build, if you have great art, and then you have a strong community that you built up, it it becomes a hell of a lot easier to book yourself on cool shows.

[00:09:40] Matt: And, get cool opportunities, right? Because, like, ultimately, that's more what you're trying to do than anything else. And, I feel like, it's really just two pieces in the formula. the manager can't alter those two pieces of the formula, they I can't really teach someone how to be a community [00:10:00] builder, I can give them some advice, but either you can do it or you can't.

[00:10:04] James: It's about having charisma, personality that's attractive to people,

[00:10:07] Matt: well yeah, and I think this is like a big piece.

[00:10:10] James: like they fit in.

[00:10:11] Matt: That charisma piece is a big piece that people don't fully grasp, some people just can do it, and some people just straight up can't. like there's some people you meet, and I say this in like a really Affectionate way.

[00:10:23] Matt: There's some people you meet who just like are rock stars. Like, and I mean that in the sense of not like they have an ego or something, but like, Will Ramos from Learn Ashore. when I first met him, right as they were popping off and was like giving him TikTok advice, zoom. I could tell, like, oh my god, this is a really charismatic, special person.

[00:10:42] Matt: and the guy Lord of Shore had before just did not have that. and like the music kind of really dramatically improved because they got Andrew in the band who's like an amazing arranger or whatever. But like, he just pours out charisma.

[00:10:54] Matt: Like, you want to be his friend. So like, that's like, not something you can teach people. I can give a band advice on [00:11:00] maybe, oh, maybe this would make the live set better. Maybe like, doing this in your show, you know, that might be a move you could try that would make it better.

[00:11:07] Matt: But like, I feel like that's not organically coming from the band.

[00:11:10] Matt: They're not gonna do it, or they're gonna kinda half ass it, and then it's gonna suck.

[00:11:14] Matt: like, I could go tell Esquela, it would be cool if Tom grew out his hair, and then Tom and Chrissy did, like, synchronized windmill headbanging.

[00:11:22] Matt: But, like, I mean, I think that would be cool. But like, you know, that's their thing. You know, I can't really tell people that. You know what I mean? And it also, again, it has to be authentic to who they are. And, you know, and instead their little interplay on stage is a lot more authentic and a lot cooler because they do it their way.

[00:11:39] Matt: And I feel like that's the game you're always playing is like, the band has to be able to do it. Their way, and in a way that makes sense to them, and you know, and you make the choices you make, but that'll only take you so far, You know, cause I work with Killswitch Engage pretty closely, and I remember being at a show with them, and we're all hanging out backstage, and the manager saying to the band, like, oh, you [00:12:00] didn't play such and such a song And the van had been like, oh no, it didn't seem like a fit on this tour, and it's just like, oh, like, yeah, the manager is the executive, he wasn't like, choosing the setlist for them. You know what I mean? And I think like, that's kind of the thing to understand,

[00:12:11] James: yeah, the manager is there to. Give them the opportunity to play, but the manager is not saying, This is how you will play.

[00:12:19] Matt: yeah, exactly.

[00:12:20] James: I totally agree with you on Charisma, like My co host, who is also named Matt, Matt Hose, Versus Matt Bacon. I remember on Warped Tour, He would go out and sell sunblocks, Sunglasses, all that kind of stuff, In lines in the mornings. And he just had people cracking up. He was cracking jokes, He was just genuinely a fun person to be around.

[00:12:38] James: And that's why we became friends. Because I was like, Hey, this guy is just funny. He's having a good time. I want to talk to him, and it's so important to have that kind of attitude because guess what, when it comes to, after you play your set, you go over to the merge table, whoever has that charisma in your band, they should be at the merge table and it's probably the lead singer, not always, but probably. want that [00:13:00] vibe, that welcoming, happy, charming vibe at the merge table. Cause guess what? You're going to sell more merch.

[00:13:05] Matt: exactly.

[00:13:06] James: Matt, have the feeling that. The answer for this question is gonna be building community, but of all the areas of business that you see an unsigned artist ignore What's the most egregious one there?

[00:13:18] James: Like you can't ignore that. Why are you ignoring that? Stop being an idiot.

[00:13:22] Matt: the formula is very simple. It's, are you building community in a way that's sustainable and cool? And are you creating really great music? you know, what you'll see happen sometimes, Is People kind of hold their audience in disdain.

[00:13:35] Matt: I remember I managed this artist who was just like, Oh, well I can just crank out a record in two weeks. That, that doesn't matter. You know, and it's like, maybe you can, but if it's not a great record, Like, you can't hold the audience in disdain. You have to always respect that the audience is the reason the whole thing exists.

[00:13:48] Matt: And so you have to always be like, How do I create the best possible product given everything going on for me? And.

[00:13:55] Matt: I feel like you always need to be investing in creating the best [00:14:00] possible content. I have a bacon spit coming out about this today. Where it's like, a lot of times the content is good enough, but it's not awesome. Right? Like, that is to say Maybe you got some good live photos, but there's no color editing. live photo with bad color editing pretty much always looks lame.

[00:14:14] James: Or the black and white cop out.

[00:14:16] Matt: Yeah, I mean the black and white cop out's a better option, at least. Cause at least that way,

[00:14:21] James: it's better than bad color.

[00:14:23] Matt: it doesn't look amateurish that way, right? Cause so often it's just, that's kind of the thing, is it just looks kind of amateurish.

[00:14:28] Matt: And I feel like that's how we need, you need to be kind of thinking about it moving forward, is like, I want everything about my musical presentation to be as pro as possible. Cause really, what you need to be communicating to people is, you know, marketing with emotion.

[00:14:41] Matt: My music is gonna make you feel a certain way. and when you go see it, it's either gonna be a blast, or you're gonna have some sort of emotionally transcendent moment, you know, it's gonna be really sad and beautiful, and you're gonna cry, or whatever, right? And you need to understand, okay, so the end goal of my music is to make people feel this.

[00:14:57] Matt: How do I make sure that all of my content [00:15:00] directs towards that? Right, like with Escuela, I feel like, broadly speaking, you could say A lot of it is about, like, feeling empowered, but also, like, having a good time.

[00:15:09] Matt: All of the social media content ties into feeling empowered and having a good time.

[00:15:14] Matt: the way you say that actually gives me an idea for like, how Artists can run advertising on social media. And I'm sure this is one of the things you do. Saying, hey, it's like, Did the holidays get you down because your family sucks? Well, here's a song about that. that's what I'm saying. cause it's like, and you see this on TikTok all the time, right? Like people storytelling, you know, and using that as like the piece of content, right? Cause like you'll see so often, like people will just be like, POV, your girlfriend just broke up with you.

[00:15:41] Matt: And then they do like a pop punk song that starts, with that, and then Plays the riff,

[00:15:47] James: Yep.

[00:15:48] James: And it's like, Man, I woke up this morning and there was like this couple having a blowout argument in my street

[00:15:54] James: Oh, no.

[00:15:55] Matt: like, breaking up, and all I could think was, man, I wish I was recording this to put a Midwest emo riff [00:16:00] over it.

[00:16:00] James:

[00:16:00] James: I love it. You know, because of TikTok, one of them would see it and eventually be like, That's embarrassing.

[00:16:08] Matt: God dammit, you know. Bo do do do do do do do. Bo ba da. Anyway. Well, that was an American football riff I just sang, actually.

[00:16:17] James: apologize to the Midwestern emo gods.

[00:16:20] Matt: All I do is listen to Midwestern emo. Anyway,American football as an example, right? Again, like, so much of that is just, like, being a millennial who has emotions, I would describe as, like, their core thing. But, like, if you look at their content, like, if you look at their live photos, and if you look at their art and stuff, they're presenting it in a way where there's, like, this heavy nostalgia factor. kind of tied into like this very distinct being in the Midwest and In college and things are okay, and you know so there's that nostalgia thing that you see in all the marketing, but there's also this sense of like sadness and transcendence which kind of like permeates the entire American football and that's what people aren't investing in and aren't trying to figure out how to properly communicate, right, to circle back to your question, right, it's [00:17:00] like, you need to go out and build community, but then people need to go and look at your Instagram after meeting you and like, oh, that was a really cool person I just met, and then that Instagram needs to look cool and compelling, because we've all like, met a cool band, and then like, their social media presence kind of sucked, You're much more likely to see another post from that band before you see them live again. and it's also like that thing where like your memories get altered, there's definitely shows you and I have both been to that we think of as classic shows just because it was a legendary band who broke up and we got to see them before they broke up. But if you actually think about it, maybe that show wasn't that good.

[00:17:32] James: Yeah.

[00:17:33] Matt: Right, but it's about like, building your own myth a little bit.

[00:17:36] James: my favorite show of all time is Pure Love, Birmingham, England, 2014. It was their farewell tour. Not their final show, but their final tour. And, it was insane. I'm not gonna go into detail, I talked about it on the podcast a bunch of times. But, I will forever remember that show.

[00:17:51] James: And I'm sure you have moments exactly like that, Matt.

[00:17:54] Matt: yeah, mine was watching Judas Priest with Phil Anselmo, Gaal, and Attila from Mayhem, and, [00:18:00] Crowbar was there, there,

[00:18:01] James: that was this summer,

[00:18:01] Matt: there. No, that was a couple years ago.

[00:18:03] James: Oh, you

[00:18:04] Matt: over the summer, I bumped into Phil and we talked about it. I was like, oh, I was fuckin sick, watchin Judas Priest with our boys.

[00:18:10] Matt: And I was like, hell yeah.

[00:18:12] Matt: so sick. That's like, a legendary memory for you to have.

[00:18:16] Matt: yeah, point being, you have to tell those stories, and I think that's where people fall down, is they don't construct the narrative of them being exciting. They construct a narrative of them being a barman.

[00:18:26] James: Yes, which is

[00:18:27] Matt: Right? Like, I think that if you look at the bands who are popping off, and you look at their social media, and you look at their marketing, it's almost always, to this is gonna be the best time you ever have, and there's gonna be a ton of cool people who are like you, and you're gonna jump on each other's heads, and have a great time, and meet your girlfriend, and make out with a stranger.

[00:18:45] James: that is a great advertisement right there. I love

[00:18:47] Matt: but like, that's kind of, like, fundamentally what you want out of a hardcore show.

[00:18:50] James: Yeah, like I'm dead serious because I like humor and corny jokes reading that as a description would actually get me to go to something.

[00:18:58] Matt: That's kind of like something that started to [00:19:00] happen with the Squayla grind in particular. cause like, they're kinda silly. Like, we've kind of just leaned into like Saying stuff like that in the press releases,

[00:19:07] James: I Love it

[00:19:08] Matt: cause That's what our fans are looking for and it's funny and it works, right?

[00:19:11] Matt: Cause there's just this piece of like, Oh yeah, we're being funded by Big Homo! And we're gonna fucking crush posers under our new balances! Right? Which is like, almost Uh, like a nudge and a wink Cause like, crazy Nazi people will be like, Oh, we'll crush you under our iron boot. And because we're like the opposite of that, We're just like, just totally like poking fun at all this stuff, right?

[00:19:29] Matt: And like, the people who know think that's really funny. And I just feel like you need to like, Just communicate that very directly in the marketing. you don't have to be shy about it, cause you just have to ask yourself.

[00:19:38] Matt: Why do I think people would come to my show? And if it's because you're gonna have a great time and stage dive and meet your girlfriend and, like, party and smoke a bunch of menthol cigarettes. Like, you can literally just put that in a press release and say, I think we said this in an Escuela press release, was like, Hate mosh your friends.

[00:19:53] Matt: No, we didn't say hate mosh your friends, but I tried to say that and they said, No, we don't hate mosh. And I was like, okay. But, like, whatever. But something like that, you know, [00:20:00] Karate kick a stranger. Whatever it is, cause like, people see that and they think it's funny, but it's also, like, Everyone, like, fundamentally knows they're being marketed to, so you might as well, like, admit it. Like, My client's in Boy Genius.Did this in a really clever way on their Spotify, like, rap for their top fans. where they said, like, You're getting this, I guess you should probably tell your parents you're gay or something.

[00:20:22] Matt: And, and that's not a direct quote, but it was something like that. And it was like, Oh, well that's kind of what it is. like, they're not trying to be like, Oh, well we're not really marketing to you, you know what I mean? Like, no, that's just who they are.

[00:20:35] James: and I'm sure pretty much everyone who saw that video was told that their listening style is that of Burlington, Vermont. So shout out Burlington.

[00:20:43] Matt: you know what's really funny? IsI found out that my homegirl is the one who programmed that dataset. But it was like an old dataset or something, so it wasn't even like she messed up. Like, it was like an old dataset that wasn't supposed to be used for this purpose.

[00:20:56] Matt: And then they just used that dataset so everyone got the same, like, four [00:21:00] towns.

[00:21:00] James: That's fantastic. I got Lincoln UK because apparently that's where everyone who listens to Metalcore should be, even though my top genre is pop punk, but I mean, hey, I'll take it.

[00:21:10] Matt: My top genres were like, rock, emo, atmospheric, black metal.

[00:21:14] James: that sounds incredibly accurate knowing you, that is a hundred percent. It's like, Jimmy Buffett and

[00:21:19] Matt: Boy Genius and Evil Feast.

 

[00:21:21] James: we continue this discussion If an artist wants to get management, doesn't have a manager, to be appealing, I know it's going to be, have good music and build a community that is cool and sustainable.

[00:21:35] James: But what else should an artist do if they want to have, not just a manager, but a legitimate manager? Because there's a distinction there. We could go into the weeds on that for hours probably.

[00:21:45] Matt: So I talked about this in a video yesterday. and I think what it kind of is, is like, let the industry come to you, you don't go to it.

[00:21:53] James: Mm hmm.

[00:21:53] Matt: Right? And I think that's where people fall down, is I think that anyone who kind of like, who I don't know already, who I [00:22:00] don't have a relationship with, who kind of asks me to be their manager, it's just by default, no. and even people I do kind of know who ask me to, like if you ask me to manage, your band, it would be like, Nah. You know?

[00:22:10] James: so letting the industry come to you, I think, is a very important attitude to have.

[00:22:13] Matt: Furthermore, I feel like, most people want a manager because they think they need a manager to pop off. But legit managers will only really come when you're already popping off. because a manager is generally working on a percentage.And What happens with that is like, 15 percent of zero is still zero.

[00:22:31] James: Yes.

[00:22:32] Matt: What am I doing? You know what I mean? And furthermore, I talk about this all the time that like a lot of people in the industry can amplify your demand.

[00:22:42] Matt: But no one can really, other than a producer really can create demand. And the only way a producer can create demand is by helping you create a god tier record. you know, and I think everyone thinks that, oh I'm just gonna find a manager and they're gonna put me on all the right shows and yada yada yada.

[00:22:55] Matt: But like let's sayyou're a grind core band and your dream is to go on tour with [00:23:00] squala.

[00:23:00] Matt: No. 'cause like they have to approve, the booking agent has to approve, et cetera, et cetera. You know what I mean? I can have input, you know, but also like, I need to approve. I need to think it makes sense and it's cool. I have a very specific vision, right? You know, you as a new client are never going to be a higher priority than my existing biggest client. Like, straight up. there isn't like a plug in and play thing.

[00:23:22] Matt: there are artists who I'm sort of able to like plug into system because They're the exact right thing But they had to do a lot of work to get there like with my friends in Bondinator Right like I'm able to show up and like get them a label and get them an agent get them on cool tours or whatever But they'd already toured a bunch.

[00:23:37] Matt: They'd already done a lot of community building. They already had records that Sounded really good and there was already demand. So, I'm not managing them, but I was able to just help them out because Right guy at the right time. You know what I mean? But they'd already done a lot of the work.

[00:23:49] Matt: And I think that's the thing, it's like You're not just going from like 70 Instagram followers and one crappy demo out to like opening for

[00:23:56] James: Fallout boy.

[00:23:57] Matt: Yeah, I was going to say state champs, but, you [00:24:00] know, generations. I just think that's what people don't understand. It's like a manager is not some sort of make it or break it figure.

[00:24:06] Matt: He's just another guy on your team who can amplify the demand, but the product needs to be there. And the thing is, it also doesn't mean that you're suddenly done, right? Because, like, I've seen artists who were on the cutoff who then put out a shitty product,

[00:24:16] Matt: and then they just lost all their shots. and it's just like, oh, cause that's ultimately all it is, is the music really good. Right, cause like, if the music is really good, suddenly other stuff will start to come with that. which is to say, like, with Autumn Kings, right, who are kind of a smaller band in a lot of ways.

[00:24:30] Matt: But when they contacted me, first of all they had a ton of Spotify Monthlies because the music was great, so people were coming in organically because it was like, being put on Spotify Radio and because the songs are so immaculately written, people would just listen in full so it got put to more things,

[00:24:45] Matt: But also like, people are genuinely excited about the music of that band because it's so good. you know, if you're able to like, talk to people and like you do have a truly next level product, Opportunities will just happen, but you have to focus on the community build, which they're very good at. I think the [00:25:00] other piece is it's very hard to understand if you have a next level product. Like, Jake from Autumn of Kings is literally being mentored by Desmond Child. Like, that's how you know how good he is. you can never assume that your music is that good because you're always going to think your music is that good because of the endowment effect

[00:25:17] James: I see that all the time. that actually ties into what I wanted to say earlier. When you mentioned that, my band would not be a good fit for you. I fully agree with that. We're not going to seek out a manager Because We have self awareness in that Taken Alive is not our primary focus. And if we want to work with somebody who's gonna take us seriously as a manager, it needs to be our primary focus. All the interests need to be aligned. But we have the self awareness that says, no, we all have other stuff going on. We're doing this because we want to make music. We're not trying to make this a full time thing, if you're going to work with a manager, you need to have that self awareness of, hey, we're all going to put in the effort to match what this manager can do for us, because [00:26:00] if you're not going to put in that effort, you're not going to go anywhere.

[00:26:03] Matt: and you just touched on something really valuable the amount a manager cares about you is directly reflective of how much you care about the project,

[00:26:10] James: Yes.

[00:26:11] Matt: right? Which is to say, if you're putting it on a back burner, that manager is also going to put it on the back burner because they know, even if you're a legacy artist who like could do a box set and make a ton of money, which would be cool.

[00:26:21] Matt: If you're not involved, like, the manager can't usually just put that together on their own, because they're not going to have, like, all the photos and all the yada yada yada, and the commentary, or they don't want to do all the work and then have you not approve it. I think that's really the thing, is like, The manager buy in is only as high as the artist buy in. And you see a lot of people who just don't take it seriously, right? Like, with a lot of my labels, we're just dropping artists left and right. Cause like, I've ranted about this before, I think it's disgusting if you put together your record and then you expect a label to put in all the time and effort, to say nothing of money, but just like their time to help promote and distribute your record and then you don't do anything to push it, What the fuck are you doing?

[00:26:57] James: and that's like some local band stuff right [00:27:00] there. That's what we see locals do and complain about that, and then to see artists on labels or management teams not putting in the effort. It's like, what are you doing? Doing you're throwing this opportunity away. It's so sad.

[00:27:12] Matt: Yeah, but you have to understand that different people are in different places in their life. They can't always do that,

[00:27:15] James: Yeah, it's just like for a lot of people That's the dream and to see somebody squandering that dream because they just don't care anymore They're so jaded by it or they have stuff going on in their life. Whatever it is.

[00:27:26] Matt: Yeah, I mean, but I think it's important to realize that dream is not necessarily what you think it is.

[00:27:31] James: Yeah, and

[00:27:32] Matt: which I think, you know, this is something like you learned in a lot of ways, right when you were doing warp tour, It is like, okay, part of this is pop punk summer vacation, but also part of it is like showering in a room with a bunch of other dudes who also all had three hours of sleep.

[00:27:47] Matt: And are all hungover, and like, actively throwing up while you're showering next to them.

[00:27:52] James: Thankfully uh, I can say never had an experience that bad.

[00:27:56] Matt: No, you've never gotten puked on while you were showering? Bruh. Welcome to real grind [00:28:00] touring. But like, that's what I'm saying, right? you know, is like, I think a lot of people get there, and then they're just like,

 

[00:28:06] Matt: Oh. This actually kind of blows.

[00:28:09] James: For me, it was like, the first two years were great, and then the third year I was just like, Yeah, I don't like this anymore. it gets old. It's the same thing over and over and over again.

[00:28:17] Matt: Yeah, exactly. so I think a lot of people just kind of get there and just hit a wall,

[00:28:21] James: It's tough. but I guess where I'm coming from is, for the artists that have made it and they've been doing it for 30 years, to see them kind of just throw it away, knowing that, in a lot of cases, some of them, like, they don't have a backup plan. Maybe they work at an auto shop or something as

[00:28:35] Matt: yeah.

[00:28:35] Matt: day job.

[00:28:36] James: Because even major label bands, a lot of times, do have day jobs when they're not actively on cycle, you know, touring in the studio, whatever. To see that, it's kind of sad, because it's like, If you put in a little more effort, you could be doing music more. But because you don't, you're working at an auto shop. And there's nothing wrong with working at an auto shop, but it's, incredibly different

[00:28:57] Matt: yeah, but I think you just have to appreciate, like, [00:29:00] you know, different people have different life situations that emerge. like, this is the other piece that I think people don't understand is like the lifestyle you need to,

[00:29:09] Matt: start as a tour musician Very specific, requires a very specific set of skills, a very specific set of people if you're a band, you need a good amount of startup income, it's really hard to go from, like, person paying rent to person on tour eight months out of the year making 20, 000 a year.

[00:29:26] Matt: I don't think people realize how many of their favorite artists just, like, live at their parents house, on some level it makes sense, I almost did this at one point, there was a point in my life where it looked like I was just gonna be on tour eight, nine months out of the year, and I was like, yeah, I'm just gonna live at my parents house, because, like, never home for more than two weeks, it makes no sense to pay rent,

[00:29:43] James: it's not

[00:29:44] Matt: you know, but yeah, but like, starting up that lifestyle is really hard,

[00:29:47] James: You have to basically start at the top if you have responsibilities like that.

[00:29:53] James: Hadn't done, as far as I know, professional touring, like, he'd played shows with his own band and that kind of stuff. But, more or less out of the [00:30:00] blue, he got an offer to tour, amphitheater tours, and started touring. And that's fantastic! But, I don't think he would have been able to go and do, like, independent tours.

[00:30:10] James: Because he has a wife, he has a house to pay for, like, all that kind of stuff. You can't do that. When you're making like a hundred bucks a night tops

[00:30:20] Matt: And I think that's the thing people don't understand. It's like, okay, you want to do this? Now imagine losing two thirds of your income. you

[00:30:26] James: having all the same bills

[00:30:27] Matt: Yeah, exactly. What can you do then? it's not an easy shift.

[00:30:31] James: I would say, you know Matt on a much brighter note It's almost 2024 this episode drops the day after Christmas or the second day of Christmas If you're in a country that celebrates two days of Christmas like Germany It's the end of the

[00:30:43] Matt: 12 days of Christmas.

[00:30:45] James: or 12 days of Christmas.

[00:30:46] Matt: Cause there's like, New Year's Eve, Christmas, Wrestling Day, Three Kings Day, you

[00:30:50] James: you just rename Boxing Day? Did you just do that?

[00:30:53] Matt: Do you know who Bob and Doug McKenzie are?

[00:30:55] James: No.

[00:30:55] Matt: It's like a Rick Moranis bit from the 80s. Anyway. I'm old. All this [00:31:00] to say, this comes out on wrestling day,

[00:31:02] James: Yes. Yes, indeed. Do you have tips for artists to start off 2024 strong? What? Love it.

[00:31:08] Matt: straight up, it's actually funny, I'm remembering I did a live stream with A band I work with, we were talking about how they got all their opportunities, and they were just like, Yeah, we just,

[00:31:17] Matt: kept going to shows, and just kept showing up, and we just kept showing up, and then because we kept showing up, other stuff happened, and then because other stuff happened, we kept being helpful, we kept being nice, and da da da, and I think like, If you can create a truly great product, And spend time working on your songwriting, which should be your primary focus.

[00:31:32] Matt: And then spend the rest of your time just being helpful within your community and asking yourself, What skills do I have to benefit my community? Be that doing sound, be that doing lights, be that just photography, whatever, you Scotty Karate from Tank Crimes, like, used to sell buns, right? figure out, like, what can you do to help people?

[00:31:48] Matt: You know, booking shows, that's a common one, So that you can meet more people and have those people go, Oh, they're a good dude.

[00:31:54] James: fuckin Capra, Tyler had, like, a radio show for a bunch of years.

 

[00:31:58] Matt: put on a bunch of like, his friend's [00:32:00] bands.

[00:32:00] Matt: so it's like, okay, you're doing things to build the community, constantly. That's it. And the more you build the community, if you can come back to people with a great product, Cause that's the other thing, is like, if your band kinda sucks, people aren't gonna help you.

[00:32:13] Matt: But if your band kills, everyone's gonna be like, Oh, Andy's a nice guy?

[00:32:17] James: Yeah. Well, Matt, I think that is a perfect mic drop moment right there. do want to shout out that you are online at bakons. bits everywhere, as well as dropoutmedia. net. Anything else you'd like to tell the audience before we call it a day?

[00:32:34] Matt: Follow for more. DM for private consultation.

[00:32:36] James: If joke didn't

[00:32:37] Matt: make sense, go watch my videos. There's five a day. It'll make sense very quickly.

[00:32:40] James: Alright, well, Matt, man, thank you so much for being here today. I hope you have an amazing Christmas and a happy

[00:32:47] Matt: Never.