[00:00:00] James: Welcome to episode 203 of the Bandhive Podcast. It is time for another episode of the Bandhive Podcast. My name is James Cross, and I help independent artists tour smart. This week on the show, I have a very special guest.

[00:00:13] James: Derek Flores of Ethan Hawke. How's it going today, Derek?

[00:00:16] Derek: going great, man.

[00:00:17] James: I'm glad to hear that. It's a pleasure to have you here. And today, we are going to nerd out about booking. And specifically, Derek, I want to shout out for anybody who doesn't know you. You are in a band. A solo project band. But you also used to promote shows, a lot of shows, and I'm sure you still do some.

[00:00:33] Derek: Yeah.

[00:00:34] James: I don't think we've ever had a promoter on the show before. So today we're going to dive into tips from both perspectives. Because there's so many things that frustrate promoters and artists just have no idea about. Because it's not the kind of thing promoters talk about. So I'm really stoked to get into that with you.

[00:00:51] Derek: Oh, we talk about

[00:00:52] James: Now, before we jump into Oh yeah, we were just before the episode talking about I think it's on the Instagram page, Agent vs Promoter.

[00:00:58] James: Bans, go check that out.[00:01:00] And learn from other bands mistakes. Or, learn from your own mistakes if you see like a screenshot of an email you sent on there.

[00:01:07] James: that's the nightmare. You go on that page, you're like, Wait, that's us! They blacked out the name, but I wrote that email. it's such a funny page. Before we jump into all that though, Derek, Can you share a little bit about your background as an artist and a promoter? How did you get started in the music business?

[00:01:24] Derek: when I was like 17, I started joining local bands and I was in between bands and I was like, well, I still want to be involved somehow, but I'm not playing music. And a buddy of mine was a promoter who had booked everybody you could think of from Upon a Burning Body and Pending Doom, Sleeping with Sirens, and he was a close friend of mine.

[00:01:42] Derek: So he's like, you know, why don't you just come hang out with me while I throw this show and you can help me out. And over time I was like, wow, there's a lot into what goes into throwing shows. I thought you just like show up and the thing's done. He goes, no, this is like a business. this is how I make my living.

[00:01:57] Derek: I was like, you know what? I think I could do this. This looks like a lot of [00:02:00] fun. I think I could do this. And as time went on, I was like, I can't do this. I was like, I can totally do this. Which is every promoter's struggle is, I have no clue what I'm doing and… No one knows they're doing more than I am.

[00:02:10] James: I love that, and that's the music business as a whole, everybody has their way to do it, and anything else is wrong, I fall into that same trap, hear me rant on Bandhive, I'm sure you've heard many of these rants,

[00:02:20] Derek: I've heard of yeah,

[00:02:21] James: yeah, I'll be ranting about something, and generally it's the kind of stuff that pisses off most people, but there's gonna be that one person that goes, no, that's exactly how you should do it, I want you to do it that way,

[00:02:30] Derek: It's

[00:02:31] Derek: usually me It's

[00:02:33] James: I love it.

[00:02:33] Derek: usually me like no he's right he's always right

[00:02:36] James: That's too good. you can just comment next time you see it, be like, Do the opposite. Do the opposite.

[00:02:41] Derek: Going to

[00:02:42] James: Oh, I love it.

[00:02:43] Derek: the funny thing about booking is that If you're a band reaching out to a booker promoter, no right way to do it But there's a thousand wrong ways to do it.

[00:02:53] James: Oh, 100%. somebody the other day commented on one of my videos and said that. All of my TikToks are negative, and he wants to [00:03:00] see more positive. my reaction was like, check out the podcast, there's so much there. and I realized later that it's the algorithm is showing the ones where I rant.

[00:03:08] James: Those end up being more popular. But, the thing is, it's also because to teach people how to do things the right way, you have to teach them what not to do.

[00:03:16] Derek: I have a friend who he wanted to get into booking how it worked. And I kept telling him like, well, this is this, this is usually how things run. Then he's like, well, it sounds like you just hate local bands and you're very cynical about the scene as a whole. I'm like, dude, no, won. You've never done a show ever to, I've been doing this for like 10 years.

[00:03:34] Derek: Trust me. The things I'm telling you are not to discourage you. They're literally show you where I messed up in the past. I'll be the first to tell you every time I messed up. And he is like, you're cynical and you hate the scene, and therefore I hate you. I'm like, I don't care.

[00:03:48] James: I can relate to that so much like I did a video about this recently and this is totally off topic but talking about the victim mentality basically saying like artists have all the knowledge in the world But they don't want it [00:04:00] because they want to be the victim and like I know i'm generalizing here I know not every band is like this I know a lot of great bands that aren't like that But those are also the ones that happen to succeed because they're like hey We're not gonna be idiots, we're gonna go do the thing right, and we're going to avoid the mistakes that so many local bands make.

[00:04:18] Derek: Sometimes larger bands. I, I worked with this one hardcore band that did like European tours and they were, legends in their own right. I'm not gonna name them because I hate them, and I don't wanna give them more promotion. But I walk in and I'm like, Hey, here's the catering, here's everything, and they're like, He's vegan, he's vegetarian. I'm like, well, your agent never sent a writer over. Like, Well, you should have

[00:04:36] James: Right,

[00:04:37] Derek: And I'm like go fuck yourself? How about no?

[00:04:39] James: I'm vegan, and the first thing I do when I book any type of gig, if it's like an all day thing, I'm just like, Is there catering? And if so, I'm vegan. it's that easy. Like, all they would have to do is like, two days before, send a message, be like, Hey, we know you're doing catering. We need vegan food.

[00:04:53] Derek: It's that easy.

[00:04:54] James: yeah. And some people would say it's on you to ask, but ultimately if they don't tell you anything about what they [00:05:00] want, why would you ask? You're just going to give them what you always do for every other band.

[00:05:03] Derek: Little Caesar's Pizza.

[00:05:04] James: ha ha, very nice.

[00:05:06] James: Hey, if you get a cheeseless, it's vegan. Their crust and their sauce are vegan. At least they were last time I checked, which was like six years ago, so. Because we don't have Little Caesars around here. This was when I lived in SoCal.

[00:05:16] James: Anyway, so that's a really cool history on the uh, promoter's side.

[00:05:19] James: You said you were between bands. So something, sparked your interest in music. Is there like a, certain artist who inspired you to get into the music scene or some, like, moment in your life where like,

[00:05:28] Derek: It was, it was kiss. It was kiss.

[00:05:30] James: No way, nice.

[00:05:31] James: Paul Stanley and just like, he's the guy.

[00:05:34] Derek: yeah, I walked to my family's like guest room and the TV was on mute and I was like, those guys just look cool. Oh my God, there's fire too. Oh crap. That's cool. it's on mute. I'm already interested, I think you've done a podcast about that too, about how visual aesthetic is the first thing people notice.

[00:05:52] James: 200 episodes in, it's kind of blurry now in my mind about what we've covered and what we haven't. But yeah, that's a great point and like, do [00:06:00] remember talking at some point about You know, you don't have to go out and have a look like Kiss, but you have to look appropriate for the genre.

[00:06:07] James: if you look like a flannel wearing redneck, you're not gonna fit in with the emo scene. Now, to be fair, the punk and emo scene here is full of flannel wearing, not rednecks.

[00:06:16] Derek: 2016 you could

[00:06:18] James: Yeah. Or if you listen to Four Years Strong.

[00:06:20] Derek: that's funny. That's actually what was in my head when I said that

[00:06:22] James: nice. Well, clearly they went down in history.

[00:06:25] Derek: True.

[00:06:26] James: so, that's your history in music. You got started with Kiss, you played in some bands, you started promoting shows. What are you up to right now?

[00:06:32] Derek: Well, right now, Ethan, how I would just put out green light. We're really doing more of a soft launch of the brand, which I, you know, is fine. I think bands should, to an extent, do soft launches. I don't think like your first release should be your big foray out, but you should find a way to curate how you're releasing things.

[00:06:49] Derek: And right now that's what we're in the process of doing is finding a way to properly curate things. So we have a waterfall of content coming out at all times. we want is for people yeah, the last thing we want is for people to gain interest and be like, well, what [00:07:00] now? Why is this on pause?

[00:07:01] Derek: the ride just started. Why is it slowing down?

[00:07:03] James: yeah, why is there no content for weeks at a time? that's one of the most frustrating things. this goes back to, there's lots of right ways to do it, there's a wrong way to do it. And that is not ever posting on social media. it doesn't necessarily have to be new music, but as long as you're

[00:07:18] Derek: be

[00:07:18] James: something that's, relevant to your band. would stay away from memes.

[00:07:22] Derek: even if it's a meme ish, fine. But don't become a meme page that just happens to occasionally pump out music.

[00:07:29] James: yeah, exactly. It's all about the ratio you want to keep content focused on your music But if you share something funny once in a while people are gonna enjoy that that's personality but you don't want it to be the whole personality.

[00:07:40] Derek: yeah, and I think in today's market people no longer want to fall in love with the music. People now look at musicians as, personalities that happen to make music. And I think with Tik TOK and social media, that's really where we are. So if you can find ways to promote your personality with the music simultaneously, like the way that, Motley Crewe did [00:08:00] it, and All Time Low is a good example. Blink 180 2, know, you have something there

[00:08:04] Derek: I do think people like to put sounds with certain personalities, and again, blink 180 2 is a good example.

[00:08:10] James: think that's absolutely true and also community

[00:08:13] Derek: Yes,

[00:08:14] James: especially in the alternative scene find a community around a band That will keep them invested so much longer

[00:08:20] James: it's amazing to see how some bands, their community implodes and the band just triples up and dies.

[00:08:26] Derek: I, I, I think, oh, for sure. And think like, that's why when I see bands with less than 5, 000 followers, not commenting or responding to people that comment on their Tik Toks, like this song is great. And they put like one of those like little prayer hands emoji. I'm like, you just lost a fan for life.

[00:08:42] Derek: That person goes, they think they're too cool for me. I'm done.

[00:08:45] James: yeah, that's such low hanging fruit. Just interacting with people like humans.

[00:08:50] Derek: I love interacting with people. It's awesome. But the more I post, the more I get to interact, the more the algorithm works in my favor.

[00:08:56] James: yeah, exactly. And you know, I'm sure you've at some [00:09:00] point felt drained by social media, but it's still a tool that you can use, and if you use

[00:09:05] James: the right way, It's gonna be like 10 minutes a day.

[00:09:08] Derek: Yeah, yeah. and also like along with Ethan Hawke, my main job is I'm a full time gigging musician, like whether mostly cover bands and like, hired gun work, and that still requires a lot of social media. But if you do it right, it's maybe like 20 minutes a day. You can set things like at this time, this post gets posted at this time, you can spend 30 minutes going.

[00:09:30] Derek: Here's all the shit I'm going to put out for the next two days. Now, let me set the calendar and it'll automatically post it for me. Facebook does that. I know Twitter doesn't, but that's kind of on its way out anyway.

[00:09:39] James: I'm disappointed in Twitter, let's put it that

[00:09:41] Derek: Yeah,

[00:09:42] James: use an app called Publr, which is absolutely fantastic because it works with Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, and all the other ones that I don't use, like Pinterest and stuff, LinkedIn, All my posts for every episode, get scheduled at once.

[00:09:58] James: So that's anywhere from 7 to [00:10:00] 14 days worth of posts.

[00:10:01] Derek: and promoters look

[00:10:02] James: my editor is doing Yeah, exactly.

[00:10:04] Derek: times when I was promoting where I would look at okay, this band has maybe 20 likes. This, other band has 50, there's like three responses and they've responded to two of them that has zero responses, which means that their community aspect will work in the show's favor.

[00:10:21] Derek: Because if someone from my scene wants to go, Oh, well, they're coming down. Let me check them out. Wow. This song's awesome. They'll respond. Thanks, whatever. And then in my head as a promoter, I go, okay, I can almost guarantee that person's going to buy a ticket. Because they've interacted, they now feel like they're a little more personally connected to the act coming down.

[00:10:40] Derek: So that's gonna like, go into the show.

[00:10:42] James: Yeah, think that's such a good move. And that band might not even know the person lives in the market they're about to play. They probably don't, but Just interacting is such a step like what we were talking about earlier. So I think this is a perfect point to transition into a talent buyer or promoters [00:11:00] tips for locals.

[00:11:01] James: let's go from the top. When a band wants to reach out to you, where do they start?

[00:11:05] Derek: there's a lot of ways to start, really. If they want to reach out, sometimes, when I was in a band, what I would do is I want to go play in Houston. I find Houston music venue on Google. Then I go towards it. I'm like, okay, realistically, and this is very important.

[00:11:19] Derek: Be realistic. A little self awareness goes a long way. It's like house of blues. I'm like, I'm not going to fucking get put to house of blues. Come on. We're a baby band. That's not happening. That's out of the question. Blah, blah, blah, bar and grill. They have shows there? Fine, let's check it out. It's all cover bands.

[00:11:35] Derek: Nope, I'm out. Maybe in the future if I'm doing cover gigs, sure. Blah Blah Blah's Hole in the Wall, VFW, Parlor. Okay, cool. considering maybe you're in a hardcore band. That's not uncommon. The DIY ethic is very strong in that scene. Death Kill was there two weeks ago. Okay, now it says Johnny…

[00:11:53] Derek: Rotten presents. Okay. Let me go to Johnny rotten presents, Facebook page or Instagram page, wherever contact [00:12:00] or just message them directly. And they'll be like, we want to go on this date on this day and they go cool. now, you know where to contact it's a lot of googling But if you really are about it, you will do it.

[00:12:09] James: there's one key thing in what you said that a lot of artists don't do. Give the promoter the date and the first

[00:12:15] Derek: Yes.

[00:12:16] James: So many artists are just like, hey, we want to play a show. And the promoter will throw like three dates at them and the band says, oh no, we can't do any of those. It's like, tell the promoter when.

[00:12:22] Derek: Yes.

[00:12:23] James: it's just a yes or no. It's like, I have a show that night, you can hop on, or I'm not doing anything that night, sorry.

[00:12:28] Derek: or sometimes we'll even be like, you know, what that's a really cool day. Nothing's going on We will build the show around you if we feel that the investment is worth it and you have to look at shows as investments a lot of bands assume that promoters are like well It's happy fun time, but it's like no we put a lot of money into these shows.

[00:12:46] Derek: We want our return We want to break even and if we can find a way to bring you here build a show around you and get that return. We'll do it

[00:12:54] James: Yeah, I agree. And one of the biggest things too that I see is This would probably be something discussed on agent versus [00:13:00] promoter if agent versus promoter dealt with local bands The amount of independent artists who have the mindset of why is the promoter taking a cut at all? It's like because they did a bunch of work potentially even more than the band did

[00:13:13] Derek: way more i've been on both sides way

[00:13:15] James: here in Yeah, exactly.

[00:13:16] James: We have this guy named Scott who puts on amazing shows. He will stand outside every punk or metal show in the area, handing out handbills for weeks before a show is, and he's just doing that word of mouth marketing, handing out handbills. I'll go to a show, and there's a 90 percent chance he's standing outside when I leave.

[00:13:36] Derek: That's really cool.

[00:13:37] James: yeah, dude we, this is totally sidetracking, he sold out six shows in a 94 cap bar this year in a small town. Hardcore shows. The other night there was a line down the block of people waiting to get in because it was sold out and there were still like at least another 40 or 50 people who wanted to get in.

[00:13:57] James: It was amazing. And he brings through, like we had Off With Our [00:14:00] Heads earlier this year. He brought those guys through. So it's not just locals. It's not just, no name regional bands. Like, he brings in larger acts as well and it's so cool.

[00:14:09] Derek: I was actually going to get to that later. It's funny you mentioned that.

[00:14:12] James: It's just so cool. Like, he puts in the effort. And that's why these opportunities come up.

[00:14:15] Derek: going back to the, be self aware when it comes to, sending out offers. Cause as you know, we don't call them messages. It's like you send offers. That's where the business negotiation aspect takes place. There's ways to do it at different levels of band like I have worked with bands that are on big labels, I've worked with purely locals, and each one has its own way of sending out offers and negotiating shows.

[00:14:40] Derek: And I feel like, bands need to start understanding that, that's gonna sound mean, but in my scene, I think we've overly spoiled the locals to the point where if they want to go out to other markets. Reality is going to hit them so much harder and people go. Oh, you're just mean you just you like to crap on locals.

[00:14:55] Derek: Like no, dude, I'm protecting you because if you want to go to another market the [00:15:00] treatment you're getting here with the way things are running here that I personally do not agree with you're going to get a reality check and it's going to discourage you going to want to like Be done with it because you just don't understand how the growth works

[00:15:10] James: Yeah, absolutely. There's certain things that vary from market to market. And, like you're saying, it's that reality check And that's one of the things, like, why artists have to look beyond the market they're in for education. if they just ask all their friends, that's like being in a sealed bubble, They're not going to get that outside experience. And they're gonna shoot themselves in the foot so easily.

[00:15:32] Derek: that guy was saying about earlier that one guy that wanted to start doing shows I had no experience but said I was wrong about everything. I told him like, you know Unfortunately as you move up the ladder bands and their rates how much they get paid starts get putting into draw and worth there's a reason that traders doesn't make as much money as Maroon 5.

[00:15:52] Derek: Because of draw. They're worth more. And he goes, well, I don't want to look at bands as who's worth more and who's worth less. And I'm like, well,[00:16:00] in the long run, you're going to be hurting the bands. If every band thinks that they can ask for exuberant amounts of money, just because they exist, they're going to learn the hard way.

[00:16:09] Derek: And it doesn't work like that and now they're going to break up because they're like well We don't know how this is really supposed to work.

[00:16:15] James: Yeah, here's how I would frame it. let's say the music is worth the same amount.

[00:16:19] James: it's subjective. We can't put a value on music. But we can put a value on the service that the band provides. And if you're a venue, that service is providing entertainment for the people that you bring.

[00:16:33] James: Unless, if we're talking about cover bands or something, then whatever. But if you're an original band, you have to bring the people. And that is the value exchange. The venue gives you a place to play, and you bring the people. You get paid for that because the venue, let's say they pay out 75 percent after expenses, just to put a ballpark figure on there.

[00:16:53] James: So they get 25 percent after expenses. Not a lot, And then they get the bar. decent

[00:16:57] Derek: it was 25

[00:16:58] James: [00:17:00] Yeah, what do you do typically for your deals? What's your promoter cut?

[00:17:03] Derek: for my deals. It's just based on who the band is If you're like a no name band coming to a new town for the first time you have no crowd And it's literally just we're going to experiment and see how it goes.

[00:17:14] Derek: It can be anywhere from like 50 to 25. if you've never played the market, you have maybe less than 300 followers on all platforms, not getting 75. And some bands will go, well, that's not fair. And it's like, dude, I'm sorry. This is not a fair industry. This is a very tough… Industry where you have to learn that unfortunately you have to take pay cuts, for example, you're like, oh, well, we got 25%.

[00:17:39] Derek: I'm just low balling 25 percent of the door last night. We're going into this market we're also getting 25. We also have merge and on our way back, we have an area where we're already liked and a guarantee you're making some pretty decent payouts on your way. stop looking at it as show to show and start looking at it as a collective of shows.

[00:17:57] James: I really like that thinking, yeah. And 100 percent agree to that.[00:18:00] A band should not get 75 percent if they're no name, and what I see a lot for smaller shows, which I'm sure you've done, is like, 75 percent split among the bands, maybe headliner gets 30, direct support gets 25, and then opener gets 20, some kind of split like that, whereas otherwise, like, at the biggest levels, if you're talking amphitheater shows, it might be a versus deal or a plus deal with… 90 percent to the artist like

[00:18:24] Derek: just flat out guarantees.

[00:18:25] James: can ask for that. Yeah, exactly. There's There was a show that I went to last fall and I can't give too many details because I'm probably not supposed to know this But it's a band I really like and they played a relatively small venue for the size that they are and it sold out Immediately is the first sellout of the tour and a lot of the other venues on the tour were much bigger So I was talking to the promoter for the show and he's like yeah we weren't gonna even break even on this show Unless it sold out, But we knew it was gonna sell out because that was their plan like they were saying in this market We just want to sell it out quickly and have a quick win so we can [00:19:00] say shows are selling out already And that's what they did It sold out in like two months and the show was like eight

[00:19:05] Derek: I did something very I did something similar a couple years back. there was this band on, they were on a pretty big label, like it's a known label. And they were like their new hot commodity on that label. and I was already friends with the guys and I was like, How about your first ever headliner one off show?

[00:19:21] Derek: Do it here in McAllen. Cause like, one of the guys that was supposed to be in the band before he kicked him out is from here. We look at you guys like hometown guys. Why don't we just do it here? And they're like, cool. They called the label owner, their book agent. Like, hey, we know this is not in the plan, but we want to do this. so I was like, okay. Pre sale tickets are sold out and it's like, yeah, but I really didn't make as much pre sale tickets as you think. I'm like, look, I'm going to make very low pre sale say it's sold out and build a pipe. And they're like, sounds kind of dickish, but let's do it.

[00:19:51] Derek: it's their first ever one off headliner to say they sold out pre sale the first time out. That looks good on them. Let's do it. And I was like, oh, thank God that worked.[00:20:00] [00:20:00] James: the general on sale.

[00:20:01] Derek: yeah,

[00:20:01] Derek: their drummer went on to join a very big band in this scene.

[00:20:05] Derek: We're still great friends and, a band and promoter, if you can like work simultaneously and be cool with each other, the opportunities are endless. Like if someone goes, Oh, well, what do you think of this guy? In my head, I'm not going, well, he's good. I'm like, he was really nice to me and a cool guy.

[00:20:20] Derek: whatever opportunities or references you want from me, About their work ethic, I'm going to say nothing but good things.

[00:20:26] James: Absolutely. That's how it goes. it truly is an industry of relationships. while we're on the subject, you know, negotiating offers. Where would you say if a band, let's say they don't have any negotiation power, but they still want to try? What can a band ask for that's not gonna piss you off?

[00:20:42] Derek: Honestly, do not try. Do not. You will not get what you want. You're going to be discouraged. Don't do it. What you should do instead, and I've done this for my project. Find a venue at another city that you want to break into.

[00:20:54] Derek: One that's just small enough. Call them yourself. Go, hey, we're blah blah. We want to be [00:21:00] there September 5th. Is the venue available? Yeah, it's available. How much is your rental? We charge 400 night But if we provide sound it's an extra 150 Okay, we'll pay that now what you do from there is go Who are the heavy hitters in this scene that I know can bring a crowd then you go?

[00:21:17] Derek: Hey, do you want to jump on this? Yeah, we'll jump on it. Okay. Well now let's get these guys You can give yourself a better time slot So you look like you're like already one of those guys that you're trying to be involved with if the show does well, people will go.

[00:21:29] Derek: I don't know who they were, but they were awesome. They were playing with Burial Ground, who's so big in this scene and blah, blah. Then, after that, you go, hey, while the iron's still hot, let's find who the local promoter is, call him and go, we played at this place with blah, blah, and blah, blah, and blah, blah, and the show did well.

[00:21:46] Derek: We have pictures, we have this, and they'll go, yeah, okay, well, it sounds like they already have the crowd on their side. That's less risk on my part. Let's move forward with it. And

[00:21:56] James: Stepping into the promoter role is one of the best things you can do if you don't have [00:22:00] an in in a market. that's so cool. I like that you mentioned taking pictures of the crowd, too. Because I always say, like, make a sheet of every show you've ever played to have your history, have your attendance, your drop, all that stuff.

[00:22:12] James: Which, for bands that don't have one, I have a free template. You can go to bandhive. rocks slash history, and you can copy that template. It's just a Google sheet with some really cool, like, stat tracking stuff built in. And use that to track your shows. Bye. Derek, I'm going to have to add in a field that's like link to photos or something like that so people can drop in links for that specific show as proof there's going to be an update coming to that sheet at some point soon.

[00:22:39] Derek: Nice!

[00:22:40] James: Before this episode comes out, because this is in like a month and a half, so adding a column should be done well before then. But yeah, so think that's a good way to also transition into If a band is going to promote their own shows, what are some common mistakes you see promoters make that bands should avoid when they're stepping into that role?

[00:22:58] Derek: Man, where to begin? First [00:23:00] again, be self aware. for example this band does really well here. Yeah, but you guys are an indie band, they're a hardcore band. We're in a cool spot where we can mix those two scenes now. But also, don't be the only indie band on like this crazy black metal show either.

[00:23:15] Derek: Even if the Black Metal show is like, that's what does great in that market, have the self-awareness to know who does not fit with who. ‘ cause that does matter. And I've seen like locals throw their own shows and make that same mistake. And then it's like, this show was weird. Yeah. The first half was packed and then once this weird indie band came, all the black metals left.

[00:23:36] Derek: They're like, oh, it's 'cause they don't support us. Like, no, that's just, they're not into that and that's okay.

[00:23:41] James: it's not for everyone. music is so subjective, and I doubt there's anyone in the world who loves all types of music. they might say that, but they don't.

[00:23:50] James: But yeah, I think that's a really good tip, is like… Make sure that those heavy hitters you're reaching out to are, in fact, a good match.

[00:23:57] James: And, also, that they're good people. there's definitely [00:24:00] bands in every scene that, can bring a bunch of people. But, their personality just sucks.

[00:24:04] Derek: Oh, yeah

[00:24:05] Derek: I broke up a band that

[00:24:06] James: I can You broke up a band?

[00:24:08] Derek: just for preface. I got very very lucky in my Upbringing I did not come from musical family A lot of people that step into stuff are like I grew up with my parents putting on records my whole life They were in bands and played guitar My dad's a football coach.

[00:24:23] Derek: My uncle was in football. My younger brother was in football My younger sister was a cheerleader. So right away when I get those like musical egos, i'm like bro I do not care who you think you are. I don't care So there was this one band and i'd be like, hey, you know their name alone on a flyer Guaranteed a good crowd every time without fail.

[00:24:41] Derek: So I said like hey, do you want to jump on this show? Like we'll do it for 80 dude, I'll pay you guys a hundred. goes back to self aware. I'm aware that your guys following is so strong, I can give you more than what you're offering. Because I'm going to make it back, just with your name alone. So, whatever you need, let's do this to make this successful. Terrible people, just the [00:25:00] worst people you'd ever meet in your life. Man, complete jerks. I'd be like, Hey, it's a good show. And I, Oh, thanks. Like, you know, I kind of like this fucking dude's attitude. I had this headliner come down from like Sumerian records and so we're talking, we're getting along, everything's going great.

[00:25:15] Derek: And they're like, Hey, we need this, this, and that. and the front man of the band that at the time was like gaining so much hype was like, Hey, I don't know you guys, but, uh. you know, maybe it's not a good move to like talk shit to your promoter because he kind of decides whether or not you guys get on the show.

[00:25:30] Derek: We're the headliner and even we know that this is his show and he's doing us a favor by even hiring us tonight, so… Maybe don't be jerks. They took that as combative. So, as more time went on, they were like openly talking shit and I was like, you know what? You guys aren't on any fucking shows anymore.

[00:25:47] Derek: Ever again. as far as I'm

[00:25:49] James: you'd talk to every other promoter in your city as well.

[00:25:52] Derek: I did and they all said the same thing they bring a crowd, but they're full of ego And I said, you know what? are you putting up with this shit? We're doing them the favor if [00:26:00] we don't book them to play they don't fucking play and they forgot that So we're not booking them a couple months later. They broke up due to inactivity Be nice to your promoters

[00:26:09] James: that is so harsh, but I am in full support of it

[00:26:11] Derek: each

[00:26:12] James: the kind of band that shouldn't grow but they do because people don't have the guts to stand up to them So I'm really glad that you did and you put your foot down and said nope

[00:26:20] Derek: grew up in almost a frat mentality households. We're like, you're talking shit, bro. that's my strength as a promoter is I'm like, I don't fucking care what this dude thinks. post up bro. Which some people don't like, but you know what? It shows results.

[00:26:31] James: that reminds me, there's this band that I've mentioned on the podcast before so you've probably heard the story. But they were just total jerks.

[00:26:38] James: later, I heard from another band that that same band has done this at different shows. I booked that other band again. And then they were telling me that they heard from a third band!

[00:26:50] James: That the other band is full of jerks. I have one friend who kind of defended them and now I'm like Huh, so they're friends with this one person who is a good person I'll give them the benefit of the doubt [00:27:00] but the band is just like pissing everybody off in multiple states throughout new england That's not gonna go.

[00:27:06] James: Well, And I know i'm never gonna book them and i'm probably not gonna go to shows that they're playing even if a band I really like is on the bill and if I know the promoter I'm absolutely gonna tell them, I would love to come to this show, I'm not coming because they are on this bill, good luck, I think they're gonna be a nightmare, I've heard from so many different people that they are, and I'm just not gonna support it.

[00:27:27] James: So just know that this band is actively losing you people coming through that door.

[00:27:31] Derek: absolutely.

[00:27:32] James: it's so frustrating. So I'm really glad that you said, that's enough, we're done. how did the show go in the end? with the Sumerian band?

[00:27:38] Derek: It went really well. We're still good friends. I mean, that band, haven't disbanded, but they've gone through so many lineup changes, and that first lineup, I still talked to all of them. one, they were all really, really nice guys. The show had some hiccups, and any promoter would tell you every show will have hiccups.

[00:27:55] Derek: They rolled with it. I was like, hey uh, this happened, I'm so sorry. They're like… That's cool. I'll go fix [00:28:00] it right now. yeah. Take your time, man. before they even left. I was like, how soon can I have them back?

[00:28:05] James: that's the thing you want, if you're in a band, you want to leave that lasting impression of, Hey, this person's just super easy to work with. And, on that note, we do have an episode, I did an interview with my friend Troy Mallette. It was way back on episode 83, booking and playing 150 plus shows a year while working a day job, Troy Mallette and the Fire Below.

[00:28:22] James: If anyone wants to listen to that, it's bandhive. rocks. com slash 83. And we talked about exactly what you're saying about just, like, There's a hiccup. you don't have a hissy fit. You don't have a meltdown. You say, okay, cool Can we help with anything? can we make your life easier somehow? maybe you would come back and say hey Yeah, you know would you mind skipping your sound check? I know that sucks But like we'll be able to get things moving a lot quicker if you're okay with that and the band goes Yeah, sure. We can do that. We have in ears anyway So like we don't care about the monitors and we trust your front of house person to just get a good mix going when we walk up

[00:28:52] James: simple as that,

[00:28:53] Derek: yeah, it's true. And those are the ones that before they leave, we're always like, I don't care if I lost money on this show. I want to bring them [00:29:00] back and make it a bigger one for them. Cause I lost money on that show. And I was still like, I want these guys back. I owe money now, but yeah. hanging out with them was fun. I

[00:29:08] James: Yeah, exactly. And that's the thing where like another like kind of local artist trope I see is the band who says Well, we never get the opportunities. Why does this other band get opportunities? We're so much better than them. It's like that's why you literally answered your own question Because derek like you said you want to help the band That was nice doesn't mean they were the best band on the bill, but they were nice They were respectful.

[00:29:31] James: They helped you out by putting that other band in their place

[00:29:34] Derek: they didn't have

[00:29:35] James: when yeah, exactly. Like, they could have just sat silently by and watched and been like, Oh, that guy's a jerk, but not said anything.

[00:29:42] Derek: the drummer for that band is now drumming in bad omens and I really feel like his attitude is easy to work with demeanor and just him being the One of the coolest dudes is what in part along with great songwriting got that band so big Was that nick from bad omens?

[00:29:58] Derek: To this day we [00:30:00] still we don't talk as often not because of ego just because you know, you get older It's so easy to work with so cool So understanding of small hiccups That's why he is so successful because music is about the hang.

[00:30:12] James: Yeah. And it's also just part of being a true professional. if you want to be a professional in the industry, You need to know what you're doing and be able to do it in any circumstance. The show must go on. oh, they didn't have your um, hibiscus infused coconut water? Who cares? Drink some Dasani.

[00:30:29] James: and I specifically call it Dasani because it's the worst tasting bottled water there is. But you know what? If you just need hydration when you're on

[00:30:34] Derek: that Yeah that same show marquee was misspelled and a letter fell off

[00:30:39] James: Oh, no.

[00:30:41] James: So it was misspelled before the letter fell off.

[00:30:43] Derek: And then it fell off and they were still like, man, we had fun. This was a good time. I'm like,

[00:30:48] Derek: no freaking way. I thought like, Oh my God, I'm going to get a call from their agent tomorrow. I'm going to get scolded at uh, it's been one of those situations. They're like, this was fun.

[00:30:59] Derek: Thanks for [00:31:00] having us, man. Really. like, they stayed at my place and just had a good time. And then like, Nick, who's now in Bad Omen, they're like, I've never had a Whataburger before. And I was like, dude, they were so cool and nice last night before I went woke up. just out of my pocket.

[00:31:13] Derek: Here's a shitload of like water burger breakfast. Here you go, man. Go nuts. You guys are so cool. I want to do this for you guys, despite the fact that I'm losing money even today now, because, so if you want to be a band that gets booked consistently, just be nice to your promoters. Because your promoter does not care who you think you are. We really

[00:31:33] James: Oh, yeah. promoters heard it from so many hundreds or thousands of acts that it's just like, whatever. and to be honest, I'm sure you've recognized that all the acts kind of blend together unless they were ridiculously mean or ridiculously nice. Anyone middle of the road just forgotten in six months.

[00:31:50] James: And you don't want to be remembered for being mean.

[00:31:52] Derek: No, you don't I booked so many bands that like there's some bands I look at and i'm like that name sounds familiar Did I book them? Maybe [00:32:00] I don't know but then there's somewhere i'm like, oh, I know who those guys are Oh, then there's somewhere i'm like I did book them and they were great Like, even if I don't remember them, I'm still like, I booked them before.

[00:32:09] Derek: Yeah, bring them back. Why not? Yeah, check it out. It doesn't hurt to just be that either. In fact, if I don't

[00:32:14] James: Right. Yeah, as long as there's not a negative connotation around the band. if there is, that's brutal. so, picking it back up with negotiation. Where we're saying, don't negotiate when you're starting out. And, I think for the artists who are ready to negotiate, they know that. So we can move on from there.

[00:32:32] Derek: you're ready to negotiate, there's a chance I've reached out to you first.

[00:32:35] James: Oh, very true, yeah. That's a great point. How often would you reach out to artists from other markets? you focus mainly a lot? Okay. And so you're just kind of reaching out saying, Hey, if you're working on a tour that comes through Texas in the next 6 to 12 months, let me know and let's try and set something up.

[00:32:51] James: Or how would you go

[00:32:52] Derek: That's an interesting, that's actually a really interesting question. So, I first started, and I was booking larger bands, I'd find [00:33:00] tours that were already announced. And I'd go, Texas, Texas. They have two days off. I can probably use one of those off days to bring them here So you go to their website or their and on their facebook It would say manager press booking at a band's website All their info should be there if you're a band starting out all of your info should be there It would say booking agent blah blah at blah blah agency and I go.

[00:33:24] Derek: Hey, man. i'm a promoter i'm doing a show I wanna bring them here and be honest. Honesty goes a long way.

[00:33:30] James: Mm

[00:33:31] Derek: never done this before. I'm new at this, but I think that they would do really well here and I'd love to do this. the booking agent that I worked with at the time, he was also in of this pretty band as well.

[00:33:42] Derek: He was like, okay, you're new. I'm gonna walk you through how this works. Okay, cool. You send the date, you send an offer, it it goes right now, our rate is going to be blah, blah, blah. Let's say for the sake of argument, 300, In the future, if you're the one reaching out, you should send [00:34:00] the offer first.

[00:34:00] Derek: You tell us how much you're willing to pay them, then we negotiate from there. And if you're a band starting out, if you're worth the negotiating, the promoter will reach out to you. If, for some reason, you're like, well, I have this date on this tour that I need. ready to lowball. Be like, hey, we really need this date filled.

[00:34:15] Derek: On this date, and like you said, it's important, on this date, in this area, we're looking to get you know, they're gonna put us out with 200, and they'll go, can we do 150 or something? And then they'll go, you know what, we can do 200, sure. And then from there, it's, you're just just got to sell a lot of merch, but it can be done.

[00:34:31] Derek: there's ways to make money on touring, but again, that self awareness goes a long way. your worth in a literal sense

[00:34:37] James: Yeah, you got your start by looking at those existing tours, filling in off dates, and then I'm sure the agents would start hitting you up saying, Hey, we have this

[00:34:46] Derek: Yes. Yes. And then I also got others saying, Hey, I heard from so and so you're the guy to reach to for this market. We've never worked together. We're looking for this much. you think you can do that? and I was still very new and I told them [00:35:00] look i'm gonna be honest I don't think I can't if we can lower it to this much It's gonna be a bit of a stretch, but I can do that sometimes they'll go We're really looking for this much anyway, so maybe next time or they'll go.

[00:35:10] Derek: You know what? Let's work with that. But you have to be willing to work with people. If you're a band going, we want 300, and they're like, we're not getting you 300, then don't be like, oh, well, to hell with you then. We didn't get what we wanted. Be like, well, what can we do? Let's build that relationship and build it together.

[00:35:25] James: Yeah, absolutely. when you were doing this, you know, you're talking a lot about guarantees. Did you ever do versus deals? Or was that? Really a thing that you just did flat guarantees or door deals, not a

[00:35:35] Derek: I, I did flat guarantees because I was not aware that those existed. As time went on, I was like, wait, I could have been doing this the whole time. What the hell? How come nobody told me?

[00:35:45] James: then if the band does well, they have the opportunity for more, they're more likely to say yes. But they also recognize that, hey, at least their gas is gonna be covered, even if they don't sell anything. Which is, like, worst case scenario.

[00:35:56] Derek: if you're a smaller band, if you're like a smaller band going to a new market, [00:36:00] you can do versus like, Hey, how about we just do 25 percent of the door? Sure. Why not? that way the promoters going, what we do is we'll look at it and go, okay, this is going to cost this much.

[00:36:10] Derek: This costs this much. My total is already this. I can make that back. Sure. This new band from nowhere now wants 200. No, I don't want to spend that much. Well, what about a door deal? then we're going well if I break even and profit I can still pay these guys what they need and I can still profit myself because sorry bands.

[00:36:27] Derek: This is a job. love music We want bands succeed, but we can't just have this weird expensive hobby where everybody accepts us benefits Especially if you're gonna like talk shit to us the whole time.

[00:36:38] James: right. Be whiny about catering when you didn't advance it.

[00:36:41] James: For a lot of promoters, the versus and the plus deal only come in at the larger levels like DIY you'll see the guarantees or just a door deal there is a lot of advantage that I think would come in if smaller venues did a versus deal I think probably a lot of the time it doesn't happen just because it's like you do have to get [00:37:00] a little more Into the accounting when you're doing that

[00:37:02] Derek: like I said, you know, most of my living is doing cover gigs. So I go on the road for weeks at a time doing cover gigs. And I had this one residency in Austin every Monday, it was, I was just starting, it was like 75 guaranteed versus 10 percent of the bar.

[00:37:18] Derek: that gave me the incentive of going, I should promote this. I should find a set list that works, that makes people want to stay. then it makes me as the artist go, how can I use my skill set to make sure that the bar makes more money? And I had that residency for like two years, every Monday for two years.

[00:37:37] Derek: Because when it came to a versus deal my automatic thought was how can I help them help me help you Together we started brainstorming ideas. Like hey, what if we have these kind of flyers? then there was a point where on the tv screen It would show who the artist was their style and what days that they were there We worked on that together you know over time that residency and did I was kind of burned out but as a band if you're [00:38:00] saying let's do versus deals You have to put in the work.

[00:38:02] Derek: You have to go, what's on our set list? What is this market into? This market's really into heavier stuff. We have faster pace stuff on our set list. Do more of that. promoters do see when bands put in that extra legroom. I once had a band that had a big draw, but they put in none of the work.

[00:38:19] Derek: And I told them, you guys are opening tonight. And they were pissed. I said, look, man, you guys didn't promote at all. We tweeted the flyer. I'm like, yeah, today, this show's been announced for like a month. You're opening.

[00:38:28] James: The worst. Yeah.

[00:38:30] Derek: Yeah, and they're like, but we're the most well known band. I'm like, dude, I, promise you, just from working with you as you came in, my thoughts were, how long till I get to go home?

[00:38:39] Derek: So, I don't care how upset you are. You've already upset me. You're opening.

[00:38:42] James: the bands with a bad attitude Just this is the kind of person who goes online and complains about Not getting what they deserve. It's like well, no you're getting what you deserve because you don't put in the effort It's not a magic thing Like oh cool You can play guitar and you have three friends who also play instruments and you make loud noises [00:39:00] together That doesn't mean you deserve anything you have to provide value and again going back to what we were talking about earlier that value is bringing people into the venue.

[00:39:08] Derek: Even if that values a

[00:39:09] James: that as the yeah showstoppers great the people who are there for you see the value as your performance But from a business perspective your performance is not the value and I hate saying that Yeah, it's 100 true. I also want to touch on a versus deal on the bar sale. That's So cool. I never thought of that. It was always, like, in my mind, guarantee versus door deal on ticket

[00:39:32] Derek: Well,

[00:39:32] James: if you're not selling tickets, taking a percentage of the bar, that is such a genius idea. I love that. that's definitely something,

[00:39:40] Derek: Those are my lowest paid gigs, but on certain weeks, they make my entire week.

[00:39:45] James: that's especially impressive considering it was a Monday night.

[00:39:47] Derek: There was some nights I left with 150 plus tips. You know, it's like we're guaranteeing you 75. Well, I left with 200 say, because I knew how to curate a set list, how to go on to Facebook groups and go on a Monday, I'll be [00:40:00] here. Here's a style of music I'm covering. Here's this and that. was like, well, this Monday night, that's just what we expected to be dead, especially if it's four o'clock to seven o'clock, happy hour, we did well, bringing you back again.

[00:40:11] Derek: You know, that's why that residency lasted two years. And that's why I was like, well, I'm, I can just do this there was some weeks where I was like, man, I forgot to book more stuff for that week. I'm going to put in the legwork to make my Monday night gig really good. And bar owners, venues and promoters look at that.

[00:40:25] James: And that's the kind of thing where, like, the people who do this stuff recognize it, and the people who don't do this stuff, it just flies over their heads. They have no idea. think that's one of the biggest mistakes that artists make is, going back to what you said, they're not self aware. There's so many ways to not be self aware.

[00:40:41] James: It's really kind of, offensive at how much lack of self awareness there is in the music

[00:40:46] Derek: Oh there was this one local that I was a huge fan of. I was like, man, I'm like, Hey, can we jump on your show? And I was like, yes, I love this fan. I'm so excited.

[00:40:55] James: Yeah.

[00:40:55] Derek: up like an hour late for their set. They're like, you guys was going up this time.

[00:40:59] Derek: [00:41:00] We'll just move that now going at that time. No, absolutely not. All of a sudden. I'm the jerk. They're mad at me and I'm like, I don't ever want to go to another show. These guys are playing again. Now i'm kind of bummed out because I was already a fan you guys lost the fan

[00:41:14] James: kind of attitude. And especially, stuff happens. Like, if somebody gets a flat tire and they're coming from another state, Call. Text. Do whatever. get in touch, and if you don't hear back, assume that the message has not been received.

[00:41:27] James: keep trying. Because if you don't keep trying, that's just bad news.

[00:41:31] Derek: Yeah, sometimes the message isn't received like the amount of times that i've later checked my email and i'm like Oh, wow, this went to a spam folder somehow

[00:41:39] Derek: and i'm like man if you know if they had Resented or sent a follow up. I would have jumped on that so quickly, you know and vice versa i've been guilty of the same thing as well where i'm like, you know, I texted them and i'm like Well, they got the message and they're like we didn't get the message.

[00:41:51] Derek: I'm like, well, I have no one to blame but myself for that but I know that because i've been on the promoter side enough times to know that it is my responsibility

[00:41:58] James: 100%. And you know, [00:42:00] it happens so often, like, when I am doing production for a show, I give the artist my number. I'm like, if you have any issues day of, here's my number. you know how many times, I'll get home and see an email from the band that they sent, on the way to the show, saying, hey, we're going to be 15 minutes late.

[00:42:13] James: I gave you my number for a reason. I don't check my email when I'm working a show. I'm busy doing other stuff. If you text me or you call me, I will see that. But my inbox is so full, I'm not gonna see that. That's why you have my number. And, honestly, the amount of times bands actually do that instead of emailing me is like, probably 1 in 10.

[00:42:32] Derek: been times where my booking agent will be like, here's a couple of dates? And i'm like, hey, i'm in the middle of a show three four hour gig. one of my breaks i'll text you back for now Hold those dates and I promise i'll get to you by at least this time by tonight And they're like, cool.

[00:42:47] Derek: there was one time I just forgot and they're like, hey just a quick reminder. I'm like, yeah, I have the, he goes, well, this one's taken, this one's taken, only this one's open. And he goes back to self aware. I'm like, all right, my fault. I should have followed up on that. know artists [00:43:00] who are like, how dare they not hold it for me. It's like, you told them you were gonna do it by a certain time. You didn't. That's on you.

[00:43:05] James: man, feel like we could probably vent about mistakes that artists make for not just days, but weeks, because we've seen it all. But, let's get into some mistakes that promoters might make when working with artists, because you've been on the other side of it, too.

[00:43:19] Derek: I probably made all of them, too.

[00:43:20] James: Ha ha, fair enough. We can talk about mistakes you made or mistakes you saw other promoters make, up to you.

[00:43:25] Derek: I will solely do the ones I've made because I know that other floaters will. And have made these mistakes.

[00:43:31] Derek: Do not assume you'll make all the guarantee money from the door. Sometimes it works. A lot of times it doesn't. Set a budget aside. and by that I mean, like, set a budget saying, Well, if I make this much from this show, this much gets put away for the next show.

[00:43:45] Derek: i went through a period where i was like, oh man, I made good money off this Yeah, let me spend it enjoy myself. I've earned it then it gets to the next show I'm, like man, how the fuck am I gonna pay for this? Communicate with bands for each show you do make a group chat one It builds a stronger community if all the bands [00:44:00] and members of the bands are on one group chat Just hug them at the show Eventually that turns into sending memes all of a sudden the guy from bloodborne is best friends with the dude from Sega whatever now they're buddies now.

[00:44:14] Derek: You just built a community now They're staying for your set group chats with the bad guys Some of them will think it's really annoying and they'll leave the group chat But hard

[00:44:22] James: their loss.

[00:44:23] Derek: it's their loss be nice to your promoters It's really easy to say that you have all the power Not always true if you're overly mean to bands then you'll be like, oh we're throwing a show on this day I don't want to fucking be on any show you're throwing works both ways

[00:44:37] James: If people notice that one promoter, I'm thinking of the guy that I was talking about earlier, Scott, if he just puts in so much effort and other promoters just kind of show up, who's gonna get booked? The guy that does the effort. Scott's gonna get the show if there's a

[00:44:50] Derek: exactly Exactly dude. Honestly, man, like I have no problem saying it. I hate my local scene hate all of them. this was a couple years back I was like, you know what? I think the show could do really well [00:45:00] this was maybe 2016 and I was like light bulb idea So I printed out physical flyers.

[00:45:06] Derek: This is when like physical flyers were not a thing at all in like 2016. I printed them out and I'm like, okay, kids, pop punk kids, let me go to the graphic novel section, manga section of Barnes and Noble. I'm going to put the little flyer sticking out because I know the demographic that's going to be there. I see on Twitter, LOL, who did this? God, it's so dumb. And I'm like, I hate it. The McAllen scene sucks.

[00:45:28] James: but it got noticed.

[00:45:29] Derek: it did. and now I've seen other people do it and I'm like, and they're like, yeah, we just don't like him specifically.

[00:45:34] James: Yeah, and obviously like, small world situation where you saw it there. They might have even known that you were going to see it. that sounds like kind of the vibe.

[00:45:45] Derek: I'm like, they still go to the shows. whatever, promoters. Scene implosion is a thing right now in my local scene. There is a show week after week after week after week and post pandemic, the shows [00:46:00] were sold out for an all local bill and that momentum stayed longer than it should have, but I'm noticing now that, the crowds getting smaller I'm going to go to this show eventually turns into I'll go to the next one, which turns into, well, there's another one next week. Do not see an implode. I've seen it happen. It is happening in the McAllen scene now. And I tell them that and they get mad at me for saying it, but I'm like, Well, your attendance is shit, so.

[00:46:22] James: That's the thing, man. Like, on that subject, I've never talked about it as a scene as a whole. But I think you're absolutely right. In fact, I know you're absolutely right. But we have talked about bands who do that. by just playing the same market week after week.

[00:46:34] James: And it dwindles. And people argue this on TikTok.

[00:46:37] James: And I have a case study right here. Because people will be like, no that doesn't happen. You can play as much as you want. yeah, you

[00:46:42] Derek: you know, you

[00:46:42] James: you're a cover Like, what you're doing with that residency, that's fine. But if you're playing originals, you don't want to play the same city every single week.

[00:46:49] James: Like, I would say two to three months minimum between shows. There is a band who has played At least every other week in the Burlington scene, but pretty much every week. I love their music. [00:47:00] They are so fun live a friend and I were gonna go see their show A couple weeks back, like two months ago now, by the time this airs.

[00:47:06] James: And day of, she texts me and is like, Hey, there's a different show at another venue. I just ran into my friend who's their drummer. Like, do you want to go see them instead? Is that okay? I'm like, yeah, sure, we're going to see this other band literally whenever in the next month. That's fine. Whereas if that was the only show they were playing at, I'd be like, I really want to see them tonight.

[00:47:25] James: Let's go

[00:47:25] Derek: Exactly, no, that's, true. Seeing implosions is a thing. There's nothing more fun than playing shows. it's my one happy place. my happiest place on But you have to know when to be like, yeah, I, I, I don't want to do that day on that day. Or, you know, it's just not a good idea.

[00:47:40] Derek: Like, I would love Ethan Hawke to do a bunch of shows week after week, but it's like, well, if I'm gonna play in McAllen, I'm not playing there for another two months. So you have to, like, find a way to make it work, It sucks, but I'm like, there's this local band, that they play once a year, cause they're all, like, getting to their 40s, and they're an incredible band, like, I, God, they are so good. And every time they [00:48:00] play, I'm like, I need to clear my entire schedule. I'll put it on my calendar. I'm not booking anything that day I need to see them

[00:48:08] Derek: they play once or twice a year

[00:48:09] James: Yeah,

[00:48:10] Derek: every week, it's i'll catch them next week.

[00:48:12] James: yeah, exactly. People just won't show up. We have a similar band who they toured all over the northeast back in the 80s and, like, made a huge regional name for themselves. And they're still around. It's been 40 years. They do one show in Vermont every single year, and they sell out a 750 cap. Purely based on, the fans that they've had for 40 years. It's absolutely amazing.

[00:48:33] Derek: It's actually similar here this band. Uh, on Rise Records. they've done big tours, like they were assigned to a really good label. skyrocketing, making a name for themselves. And they play here maybe once every two years.

[00:48:46] Derek: And they play in a theater, and they sell it out every time. just the announce alone is like they're so guaranteed to like a good crowd that I'm like, man, I kind of want to do a show there. How much can I get them as a headliner? Cause I know it's guaranteed.

[00:48:58] James: exactly. that's the kind of [00:49:00] thing. The bands who get it are the ones who will do that. They'll be like, yeah, Okay, maybe two of our friends couldn't make it. We'll play another time so they can see it, but that's gonna be in a year or two. They're not gonna be like, oh, our friends couldn't make it.

[00:49:11] James: Let's do it again next Saturday. Because,

[00:49:13] Derek: The amount

[00:49:14] James: then your friends are never gonna make it. And speaking of oversaturating, I see we're over the hour mark here, so I don't want to oversaturate the market of the podcast, and make people's eyes roll back in their head, because we've been venting at them for an hour.

[00:49:25] James: This has been a great chat, I love it.

[00:49:27] Derek: I was gonna say one last thing. And I feel this

[00:49:29] James: Yeah, please,

[00:49:30] Derek: offer show swaps. I'll tell you how this works and why it works. Promoters have this weird tendency of taking a local band and making them their personal project. I don't know why we do it.

[00:49:39] Derek: But we'll always find a band and go, I want them to do really well. We'll put them on everything that's worth being put on. So if you're like, Hey, we don't have any numbers here, but if you book us October 8th, we'll bring them to our market, October 10th. And now they're going, yes. bring fuel to the fire.

[00:49:55] Derek: That is my little local project. And they're guaranteed to book you. I don't know why it is. It's just, [00:50:00] we do that. done it

[00:50:00] James: show swaps are such a good idea.

[00:50:02] Derek: know why.

[00:50:02] James: Pet Project thing is news to me. That is very valuable information.

[00:50:06] Derek: I don't know why we do it.

[00:50:07] Derek: every promoter would say, yeah, we have this one band. I really like, I think they could be great. So I put them on like all my big stuff.

[00:50:14] James: that's gotta be the situation where it's just they like the music. They like the people. They're easy to work with. That's how you become the Pet Project. That's what you gotta do.

[00:50:21] James: Well, Derek, thank you so much, man. This has been a blast. Before we go, I just wanna make sure that people know everything about you to find you. So you are at Ethan Hawk on all socials, but that's Ethan with a u e t h u N. H A W K, and then your personal is at, underscore, Derrick Flores, that's D E R E K F L O R E S.

[00:50:47] James: Greenlight is out now, just recently dropped, and you also have Crossfire and Bittersweet. singles from earlier this year and end of last year Anywhere else you want to send people anything else you want to drop [00:51:00] as final words of wisdom anything like that

[00:51:02] Derek: Follow James. You already are. But if I post on mine, follow James. for as long as I've known the dude, he's never given bad advice. And if you think he's getting bad advice, Then you have an ego and you need to chill it out because I promise you he will make you

[00:51:14] James: I love it. Oh, man, you are too kind derek. Thank you so much It's been a blast talking with you and i'm looking forward to doing this again in the future We can vent some more about artists and egos.

[00:51:24] James: derek. Thank you, man. Have a great day

[00:51:26] Derek: and have a good one, brother