[00:00:00] Welcome to episode 156 of the Bandhive Podcast. It is time for another episode of the Bandhive Podcast. My name is James Cross, and I help independent artists tour smart. This week I have a really special guest, John James Ryan of the band Keep Flying. How are you doing today, man?

Got the Topo Chico in hand. We're ready to rock and roll. Come on

All sick. It's the rock and roll lifestyle. You're traveling, You just wrapped up a tour like a week and a half ago, and you're already away from home. Again, that's the lifestyle that I tell you, man. I know it's tough, but if you're in a DIY band, that's kind of how it is, right?

I think pre pandemic, it was for way more people. I think post pandemic, you see a lot more resistance and or straight up defeat from a lot of smaller artists and. Respectfully, so I don't say that in a, disrespectful way. I've, I literally this week I've seen multiple acquaintances, bands or solo projects making these rogue posts like, Hi, I, I just can't do [00:01:00] this.

I can't afford to tour in this capacity. I, I just can't. I'm gonna piece out for a little bit and I'm gonna work on music and see you guys soon. And I'm like, Yeah, I know. I get that. Cuz even on the bigger scale with a lot of the bands that I have been involved with work wise or whatever a full tour is like three and a half weeks where it used to be six and a half.

e everyone's kind of dialing back because even on that scale, a lot of these artists, I'm, Well, I went to a show last night, stopped by and see some friends and one of those bands. I'm not gonna mention, but they've been a band for quite a long time and I don't think that they've ever made income ever off their band.

In fact, I believe that they're in an extreme amount of debt still. Like you really have to start to like, is like the joy I get from playing worth the fact that I'm actually just, regressing certain parts of my life. Kind of interesting and

sad.

yeah, absolutely. And I mean, especially, you first of all, the pandemic can throw a wrench in a tour so quickly, like one person gets [00:02:00] covid. This just happened to a friend's band. They had to cancel the last three shows cuz one of the members got covid. Now they're driving home like 800 miles without any shows.

That sucks. the other thing is with the cost of everything rising so rapidly, especially gas, it's getting more and more expensive too.

I'm sure you know the used car, used Van game isn't, unacceptable. Like you're talking vans that were 6,500 people are trying to sell for 14 grand now. And just like the gas increases for merchandise, the cost of the blanks, the cotton, just this year it's gone up four times in one year.

I'm sure people are seeing that the bands are charging five more dollars or 10 more dollars for a t-shirt and it's because well, they're paying like $4 and change more than they were one year ago.

It's truly amazing. I remember like 10 years ago, you could get a small run of shirts for like six to $7 each one color and like five years ago is still about the same. It was a dollar or more,[00:03:00] and now it's basically twice what it was

10 years ago. it just skyrocketed.

And

for the small

banks like us, we're not really making money on what comes through the door. Like we hope that the door money is helping us get to break even with the expense. We hope, it's really all in, like selling the records and, a couple t-shirts that it's like, okay, well after the cost of those items, we profited 260 bucks today.

Cool. Thank God we're not getting a hotel room and we're staying with a friend, because otherwise that number would become 160 bucks. And then the gas is gonna be another $97 to fill the tank. All right, Now we're at $80.

you're chipping away at it constantly. it's really, really unfortunate. And that's a big part of what I want to talk about on the show today is just the actual model of being in a DIY touring band. Because as much as we can talk about like, Hey, go do this. In the ideal world, the tours that happen are never the [00:04:00] ideal world.

Like something is going to go wrong at all times. And knowing that you have this background of touring with larger acts, which I found out about after we scheduled the interview. So that's a really happy coincidence. It's I just absolutely want to pick your brain about all this stuff.

 

So before we jump into this, Keep Flying is six members, which is large. I mean, for a Skull band that's somewhat typical, but still for the average DIY band, that's a little bit on the bigger side, and that obviously adds to all the costs.

Aside from all that, can you give us a basic rundown of the history of the band, which was started back in like 20 16, 20 17?

Yeah, I The current lineup is only two of us from the beginning. It's just Henry, my singer, and myself. Peter, our drummer, came in very quickly after the beginning. We had a guy who started the band who I don't think realized we were gonna be like an actual band that wanted to do the thing. So he very quickly after three shows was like, Wait a minute no, I can't do this. And Pete came right in, [00:05:00] which is great. And he's been here ever since. And Pete is actually the only member of the band that has never missed a show. So I would like to say that that fact takes away the fact that he did not actually record on the first ep, and we just pretend like he has, you know what I mean?

Yeah. Props to

Pete for that.

we've lost a couple people along the way as far as like people deciding that they didn't want to do the band anymore, which is totally fine and respectable. And then we've gained people that want to do this more than. the same amount that I do, which is what I needed personally for this band. we picked up Chuck along the way playing bass and doing all of the harmonies in some of his own vocals now.

And he's just happy to be on the road at all times, which is great. And then Ricky, came in on the secondary horn, which was great again for Henry because him and Henry, were used to be in a band together for many years. And good for me because I've been friends with Rick since my first band played Buffalo in 2006 and his old [00:06:00] crappy bands like played with my old band many times in North Towanda, New York.

and here we are now, and Rick is like, when it comes to. the Business. he's like the first guy I call to talk about like merch designs routes or things like he's the first guy cause he's the one who answers the fastest, truthfully, no shade in my guys, but he's the guy. more recently we lost our other guitar player and we gained our friend Dustin, who a also has been my friend for a long, long time.

and he was in a band called With the Punches and he has brought a great uplifting, positive attitude, energy to the band as well as he shreds on guitar. And we just finished a new record the guitar stuff he did is just a thing that we've never had before. and so yeah, I'm just like really excited about the current lineup of the band. But I am very grateful to all of the previous. Artists and [00:07:00] musicians that were in this band that helped with the songwriting and or the business of doing the band. I, I appreciate all of them. Still friends with all of them. And, most of them will randomly pick up an instrument and play a song with us.

Like we have that good relationship still, which is good. And I think I have their blessing as well,

That's fantastic. judging by the fact that you say, Hey, all of these new members are people you've been friends with for a decade, decade and a half, whatever. You don't seem like the type of person to burn bridges, which makes me think also those X members would absolutely give you their blessing, like just on the quick description that you've given.

Yes, but don't get me wrong. Like I am a human being as well, and I've definitely. had my share of long term friends who just suddenly have walked out and vice versa. But I feel that that is very okay and very human. I used to push against that for a really long time. And now, especially during the pandemic, everybody's tree, this was said to me by somebody [00:08:00] else when I was coping with the loss of some friends.

Everybody's tree had to be shook for the best because the coconuts that stay when the tree is shaking, those are the ones you want anyway.

The ones that fall out is not what you want. and also another little. like Blurb that I often read when I have to remind myself of like letting go of things, which I have a hard time with, is not everybody is going to be on your path at all times.

And when it comes to keep flying, that's why some of these guys did leave because their path changed. Trying to force someone on your path ain't gonna do them any service. And it's certainly not gonna do me or anyone, any service, like just let it naturally go. And maybe that path might run parallel, but even if it's parallel, it may not be the same path.

and maybe it'll come back, but like once I've accepted that, now I get to look at all those pockets of my life and be like, that era [00:09:00] with those people when things were good was awesome. And I'm glad that that's the memories that I have now because now I know how this person is and my Lord, I couldn't possibly be their friend now.

and I'm sure vice versa for other people when it comes to me like, man, I kept being a joker who just kept touring on the road constantly and like had a really hard time committing to anything outside of road life and And music. And I think after a while, there are some people in my life who are like, can't really have a fair with a friend like you.

You're never around. Like you're one of my close friends, but you're not here ever. And like I forget to call sometimes. And so I do get it. You know what I mean?

 

For sure. I mean, just personally speaking, that's why I quit touring too. Like, for me is like, I don't wanna be on the road for more than two weeks at a time now, so

I'm done.

I understand the sentiment completely. That's why current iteration of Keep Flying and before this, we often play shows where someone or someone's has to miss anywhere from one to a whole tour [00:10:00] because of whatever other priority is happening in their life. And we're very.

Outspoken and transparent with each other these days and it makes it a lot easier to be like, okay, that's cool. we have like this line of a couple friends who can fill in on a whim and so we're able to be like, Hey man, no big deal. Cool. Thank you for letting us own advance so we can rehearse with whoever and we're just gonna go still rocket anyway, just because we hate canceling.

we as a band hate, hate to cancel.

yeah, it's no fun. And half the time you've already sunken at least some form of investment into a show. So canceling means you're out on that investment. it's never fun. And I kind of wanna highlight on what you were saying about people that you used to be friends with and you aren't.

Now. Everything is a learning experience in life. And I know this isn't necessarily specific to. But that's just such a good point you made there is you learn over time and what I love to say is the day we stop learning is the day we start dying. And I have no idea who said that originally. I stole [00:11:00] that from someone, what you're saying is a perfect illustration of that and the fact that you're adapting and you're learning about how other people are,

Like I think that's something that's so important for anyone who's in a business with business partners to understand.

And you any band is a business if you're not just, you know, playing the local bar once a month, if you're actually actually playing shows, going on tour, even if it's not with the intent to necessarily make it a career, it's still a. It's a side hustle maybe, but it's still a business. Or if you do wanna make it a career, that's huge.

So going further, you're one of the business minds in Keep Flying. What is like your official role, if you can sum it up in the

band?

I gotta be completely honest because I've been having this combo with my band mates like this week. and I say this with no ego, just fact, it's almost all of me

at this point. The band is all of our baby. But as far as like not playing the shows or sitting in the [00:12:00] studio, everything else is like me, which is cool because I did that same kind of thing for the bands that I all used to work for.

Whether it was no members of the band being involved with me coming up with ideas or one, It's never been more than that. It's always been like, it's mostly me. In fact, my old bands that I joined, After a X amount of time in the back in the day, all of a sudden it was kind of like, put on my plate. like, you're gonna do this stuff otherwise we're not gonna really be a band because I can't do it anymore. And that's kind of where that mentality first started. It's like, I can't rely on someone else, so I'm gonna just make sure I get it done myself. not to say that I can't rely on my current band mates. that's not it. But it's like, if I have a timetable, I just want it done.

Yeah. It's

it's all of it.

 

the mastermind behind the project, essentially.

And it, it didn't start that way when Keep Flying started. I was like a [00:13:00] supportive of my friend Henry, who was happy to be asked to record on an EP of songs that I thought were awesome and then in the studio it was like, Oh, I'm in on this.

But just so you know, I'm not gonna be able to do as much of the stuff touring wise because I'm very committed to like working for these vans, which over the last six years has very quickly switched around the other way.

I prioritized the band over any work for any band. Now there's no question about it because I fell in love with it

I've, could you not? We played a house show and knew Pulse years ago in our friend's basement and I was like, Oh my God, this is why I've been so sad the last six years. I can't believe I didn't have this and I was just helping other people live, my dream for so long. I can't go back to that full time.

I have to make this something.

here we are, you know,

still try it. It's still a lot of work to be done and we're still willing to bust our ass because truthfully, even when it's like we're playing a show to 34 [00:14:00] people 39 or 41 people, whatever it was in Burlington, Vermont on a Tuesday evening, I'm still happy to be there more than wherever the hell I was going to be that day if I wasn't doing that

and I have to say, like as somebody who has seen probably way too many local bands, and I don't mean that in any disrespectful way, I'm sure you're in the same boat,

the amount of energy you brought to that set. I've known of keep flying for probably five years, cuz of my friends who are all Survey says fans and now keep flying fans.

I was like, Cool. Yeah, they're good. I dig it. And I saw the band play live. I was like, that's fantastic because I've never seen at that specific venue at Monkey House in Winky, Vermont. I've never seen a band put that much effort into their

set.

And from one standpoint, like you're a very easygoing band.

You borrowed gear from everyone. You just showed up with your instruments and said, Cool, we'll play what's here. Which, you know, you had arranged that with the other act on the show. Of course. It wasn't just that you showed [00:15:00] up and said, Okay, whose gear are we using?

But you're not saying, Oh no, we need to bring our own gear to do our show, Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

You just show up and you play what's available and you killed it. That's one of the things I wanted to talk about is this was a Canadian tour and you were just heading back through Vermont on the way back. Was that specific to the Canadian tour or is that how you do most of your tours with Keep Flying, that you just tour

very low production and use what's available?

man, like you said earlier, it's, Well, how can I save money for the business? Well, if I don't have to bring a trailer, because we can work out borrowing gear for all of these shows, then we're gonna save money. That's how we're gonna be able to do this, maybe more than other bands our size.

I totally understand why, why other bands, either one, can't use other people's gear, or two prefer their own. That's fine. But like, we're kind of just a punk band and we can get away with doing that. we try to do that all the.

any way we can, Like for [00:16:00] instance, we're, we have a run with Les and Jake coming up and Cliff Diver's on there. I haven't hit up their team yet, but I am gonna hit them up soon and ask, is there any way we can share your drum shells? Because then if we don't have to bring a drum kit on this tour, we could probably get away again with no trailer and just squeeze in six larger men into a, a van with everything piled.

but we could probably get it done, but only if we can borrow the drum shells. I mean, we always offer money for drum heads and like, however we can do to make it, we load the gear in and out for them. We always offer that. Or we'll do the trade where we'll be like, Don't bring cabs, we'll bring our cabs.

If we can use your drum shells, that will help us both.

Yeah.

good fortune with that. So no, that's always, But playing Vermont specifically on this time was because we got offered a show in Montreal and I was like, Okay, well if the Canadian tour's gonna end over there, then we're gonna come through Vermont.

Why wouldn't we at least try to throw a Vermont show together, an upper Vermont show? Because we [00:17:00] always play South Vermont and we don't get to play Burlington as often.

And personally, I love playing in New England, specifically upper New England. So any opportunity that I have to add something in that region, I do.

Even though the shows are smaller and there's less people and, I love playing those places cuz it's awesome.

I take a lot of pride in playing places. Most bands play. No times. Like a lot of the bands I've worked for have never played Vermont ever. Or maybe they played higher ground one time in their career.

That's it.

They've never done New Hampshire, ever. And I'm like, Man, the bungalow in Manchester, New Hampshire was like our most played venue for the first few years as a band, more than home. And that's crazy.

 

I think that's fantastic because what you're saying is absolutely correct. Like this area is starved for art and it kind of seems like there's a few bands that get it. Like Jimmy World regularly comes through here and there's bands [00:18:00] smaller than them or slightly larger that just don't come through here.

Sick puppies, back when they were touring, a lot would always come through here. Silver Sun pickups is pretty. And then there's bands that just completely ignore it. And you know, they could sell 600 tickets at higher ground if they come through, cuz we have a great alt rock radio station here that played all these, you know, like mid two thousands, emo, pop, punk, whatever

bands.

So you know,

it would

sell,

in defense, I could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain that all the years with Higher ground, I think it's the same way. I believe they are a door deal venue. So I believe that, you know, a lot of artists can't take that gamble on what if the show doesn't do great and we don't make the money. We need to even pay off whatever the expenses in the crew and all that.

Like music industry, music business stuff where that's tough for a band to justify. So if you don't want to go and play Vermont because you don't care or know how beautiful it is, you're not gonna even waste your time. No offense.

Yeah, no, that's very fair. And I think, you know, higher grand [00:19:00] themselves probably realize that not every show is gonna be a winner, and that's why they're not offering a guarantee or a,

or versus, or a

plus or whatever other

kind of deals They couldn't have.

I think it's a nonprofit,

yeah, it might be a B Corp or something. I'd have to

look into that

more.

They can't take the risk either. And also another factor there, a lot of larger bands that are not as involved in their business have no say in what's happening or care to have any say in what's happening with their tour routing.

They just get the dates sent and go. Sounds good.

 

yeah, absolutely. And we saw a great example of that January of this year with all the bands who were like, We're not playing when we were young. And a day later, Oh, actually we are our manager booked that. And just didn't know how big the lineup was. It's

like, Yep.

 

So

 

gotta say, I think it's a great model that you have about just traveling as light as possible, saving those costs. And you know, like you mentioned, some artists rely on that. Having their production there set up, you know, especially if they have like an [00:20:00] in ear rig, it's easier if they have their own stuff.

Cause then it's all set up the way they want it and all that kind of stuff. But all that production, like I can go see a huge production band and be really impressed with a production and be like, they still look wicked board on stage, keep flying, does not

 

you see, Keep flying and it's insane.

you could play with anything and just show would be amazing because of the energy in the stage. Prisons

many times, especially in smaller places, never have production, but we'll like find stuff in the venue to grab and throw around on stage and make like these silly, funny moments. man, I'm just up there having fun.

Years ago I was told by an old band mate that I was too goofy on stage

I have never really stopped shaking that.

It was something said to me that really just bothered me because I. was, Come on, I'm adding so much like fun. I'm genuinely up here, happy to be here. And sometimes it [00:21:00] comes. Aggressive. and sometimes I get choked up when I'm thinking about a sad thing or, but sometimes I'm just in a good mood and happy to be moving around and being a little extra silly. I also have adhd and once I get moving, I'm, I'm like moving. And so things just happen sometimes, you know what I mean? My bad. again, to each their own. I, you know, if you're playing music like turnover, maybe you're not up on stage doing silly stuff and moving because their music is a vibe. It's chill. I love their band. If they were doing what I did on stage, I'd be very confused as to what the hell was happening. It doesn't make any sense. This is the slowest, mid-tempo song I've ever heard.

Yeah. It's definitely genre specific. You know, I wouldn't expect to see like an indie band jumping around like you do, but I also think they can still bring energy to it that's appropriate for that, so they

don't look completely bored, which is what a lot of

artists kind look like.

a lot of those bands make it up with, they spend the money on having like a [00:22:00] really unbelievable light show.

our band, if we added lights, that would just be another thing. But like, we don't need the lights because we're already moving around so much, the whole band. But like, I've seen a lot of bands that they just stand there. But when they have the crazy light show and the production and whatever tracks and like in between interlude stuff, I'm like, My God, God speed. You Black Emperor. They don't move. Not a muscle. When I saw them at Thero Adera in Philly with my buddy years ago, I was like, I was like wiped out and there was no movement, no one in the crowd moving and no one on stage moving. And I left there like wiped out in a good way. And it was like that and knows how to do that. That was a beautiful thing to see. But again, if, if you can't emulate something similar to that and you're just standing around, you know what happens? People get bored and they go on the internet and they write that. And I see it often with a lot of artists. It's like this band just was there and then the set was over. Sure. [00:23:00] I don't want someone to say that about my. I'd rather someone be upset at how much we moved and upset with the amount of spit that comes outta my mouth on stage, which I've had complained to me before. But lady, I'll tell you, when you're jumping around on stage doing a P 90 X program and you're playing a woodwind instrument and you have overactive saliva glands, I hate to break it to you, but there's nowhere else for it to go except onto the stage. I have no, I can't just swallow it. It's not an option for me.

And so I'm not really sorry about the amount of saliva that comes out. I do my best do not spit at the crowd, but it does come onto the stage. I try to turn around and do it, but it doesn't always happen that way,

 

it is what it is. You're, you're doing a show, you're performing. that's part of it. Whether you want it to be or not, it's there.

don't stand in the front. I don't know what else to say.

Blue Man Group style Give out pawn shows in the first

row.

Right. If that, Yeah. Wear the mask. I don't know. People are still wearing the mask at the shows. Feel free. I [00:24:00] don't care. Doesn't bother me if you wear the mask. I don't care.

there's nothing that can change from the fact that I'm literally sprinting back and forth on stage and playing a, read instrument. it's all my mouth. I say that because it, it's not often, but like every couple months I have to read someone, be like, Oh, the sax player was spitting all over the place. Like,

 

isn't even them saying it to you in person. They like write a review

or a comment

One

person said it in person one time.

One time,

Also, one time. I used to wear smaller shorts. One time somebody told me that they did not like the shorts that I was wearing on stage. they were too small and that they could see my, genitals. Like they could see that it was moving around in the shorts. I have my own feelings about that.

I, I, I'm not trying to give you a free show here, lady, but, I find it very interesting that some people get the pass with that and then some people don't. But I did move on from those shorts, and I do wear slightly larger shorts now. I do, I wear [00:25:00] Sophie running shorts, but they're sold, They're not like custom item. It's a running short that people wear when they're running and I wear them on stage because I'm running on stage. Anything else is impossible for me to perform in. I'm so sweaty and so restricted. Anything else?

And that just goes to back to what we were saying about some bands, like they have the coordinated look. Like, I love the example of AFI in 2006. White jeans, white shirts, like all white. That works for them. It's a really cool look. But that is not for everyone.

we've tried stuff like that before. We did a run of shows a couple years ago where we all wore the white and we looked cool,

it came out really awesome. like, I loved doing that. I love a gimmick. In more recent times though, our conversation, which I do think is important for like how we look on stage is like, we need to just look good. truthfully, we are older guys and you know, I do think that there's some urgency to like, try to, have a look [00:26:00] and have that look not be like a homeless person on. At least for our band that's pretty much the prereq and all my guys have been doing a great job of like keeping themselves groomed and like wearing a nice plain t-shirt or like a nice button down shirt, whatever it is.

Like wear what you want. But I think there's a level of importance to that for sure.

 

absolutely. I think there's a big, sweet spot for most artists between wearing whatever you want and wearing

uniforms

if we were wearing all of us pajama pants up on there, you and you didn't know the band, you'd be like, This sucks

no shade to somebody who's up there who can make that work. did I miss? The memo is this, What is this? What, what's going on here right now? You also, it didn't mean to get a little fired up over some of the things that have been said, but I've never actually spoken about it, and for some reason it just came into my brain and was like, these two things really kind of broke my heart a little bit. And I really wish that you didn't take an issue with it, but [00:27:00] you're free to have an issue.

I just, I don't really think there's anything I can do about them, so

Yeah.

probably never talk about it again.

Well I think it's good to get that out there, especially for other artists who are listening to maybe kind of think about like, hey, people are gonna criticize things that they don't like and that doesn't mean we have to change what we're doing. know, we should think about it, but maybe it's valid, maybe it's not, so something you mentioned a second ago is you were saying that you and the guys in the band, you're all a little older, and that was a really cool conversation we were having at your show a few weeks ago, was about what fan base is to target. Because one of my favorite strategies is to. Target like college age kids who are fresh, they're still discovering music.

So you're gonna get a lifelong fan and that works for a lot of people, but it's not for everyone. And you made a great point that when you're doing tours like With Less Than Jake, which if you toured with them at least once, if not multiple times before, and you're about to do a run with them in uh, November and December it's already in November, which by the way, this episode comes out the [00:28:00] Tuesday before Thanksgiving, so the 22nd, so you might already be on that tour

so this will be one week before the tour starts. Perfect.

 

Yeah. So if you're listening to this, go look up The Less Than Jake and Keep Flying tour dates and please go to a show because Less Than Jake is phenomenal Live. I've seen them like five or six times I think, and I've seen Keep Flying Once and it was literally the best local show, like the most energetic local show I've ever seen.

And I'm not making that up, like I'm being a hundred percent real with that. As part of that conversation, you were saying, Hey, a lot of the people at the Less Than Jake shows, or I think you also mentioned Real Big Phish, a lot of the older fans are really into discovering new music, our music. So can you kind of talk

about that a

little bit?

more so now than before.

Like now after the pandemic

I yeah. I mean, I don't have the statistics to prove that, but I, I I think at least on my own, Perusing. I, I feel like an experience, I feel like a lot of the [00:29:00] older bands end up playing with a lot of the similar things they've done. It kind of rotates like who they're playing with. so it's less bands, at least in that world, like new bands that get like recognized. I've been having a great time meeting people that are 35 plus years old I also have a great time when I meet the people in their young twenties when we happen to get on a bill with bands that are like younger.

That's great. I I like doing both. It's fun. Who should you Target can't really answer that question. Like you have to figure that out on your own. I know that we don't. Teenagers because teenagers don't get our music. And it's not like it's, you know, I've accepted that. Like I look at our like, stats on streaming and our under 18 is less than 1% of our streamers. So there's the answer. We don't really have any.

I think some friends who have kids, like the kids might listen to the band because our friend has kids 10 years ago. You know what I mean? Like things like that. But I don't know, you gotta find your own way with that. [00:30:00] And it changes based off where we are and who we're playing with.

And like, when we're doing like the, these small headline shows, like the DIY stuff, like it does change the genre bands we play with, the age of the bands we play with, Everything matters. everything changes the factor of what is gonna be the people that are coming out. I think it's just the most important to play to people who like wanna give a about checking out new music. The people that I was excited to play for are the people who came out and were at these shows for doors because they were interested to see who the opening bands were. People who aren't interested are not coming at doors, and so you don't have to worry about those people.

They're not gonna show up until 8 45 anyway, and they're only there for the headliner or the last two bands, and so you don't need to waste any time with them because they're not there. They don't care. And that's fine if that's how you are. I'm guilty of that. I've been to plenty of shows where I'm like, Well, I'm not getting there until later. I can't always see every band, but I [00:31:00] have also had many great experiences where I am either working a show or happen to be playing a show. playing. I always watch every band. I always make sure to be in the room, at least for a few songs of every band. Cuz again, you never know when you're gonna be like, Holy crap. This band I've never heard of. They have 18 followers on Instagram, and they just blew my mind. You don't know. And for me, someone who sadly doesn't use streaming, I, I'm just showing my age here. I just still like,

just don't stream anything. It's not like,

a, edgy thing. I just don't, like, I still find out of bands when I happen to see them live. Like when I see a band that I've never heard of, I'm like, I'm in. I'm like, Damn, I'll go check them out. I use YouTube for streaming. Again, this sounds crazy, but I, I kid you not, when I wasn't listening to a record, I'll put it on YouTube. somebody makes like the mix tape of like all their music videos of that record and there's ads in between.

It's like a nightmare. But like, that's how I [00:32:00] listen to a record. I will go and check the band out and or stay in touch with them and say, We gotta play together again. We just played with an insanely awesome rock band in Ottawa that I just watched the whole set and was, they're older guys and I was just, I know they're just a rock band doing it kind of for fun or whatever.

And I was like, These guys were so good. And I will definitely make sure that we play another show with them. I would never have heard of them ever before. that's why I love live music And that's why everyone who comes out to shows early and if you don't, maybe the next couple try it out.

Especially if you don't know the bands on the bill. Maybe don't even look 'em up. Just show up for doors and see. Maybe you'll find something there.

Maybe they'll say something before a song that will strike a nerve with you. Or maybe not, but at least, at least You gave it a shot. that's my advice for someone who's still in love with live music and like needing live music to be a place to escape whatever crap is going on [00:33:00] at home or at work or whatever.

I think that's fantastic cuz I fully agree in, you know, I stream, but I still have a massive iTunes library of like 11,000 songs or something I'll still, I'll buy CDs from artists that like I fall in love with and I'm like, okay, it's going on the phone. Especially with bad data connections up here in Vermont, like streaming is kind of unreliable if I'm in the car.

But that'll aside going to shows for the opener and staying for the headliner and being like, wow, they're actually really good. Or like you're saying, going for the headliner, but showing up early and thinking back on the last like 14, 15 years, most of my favorite bands are artists that I saw live first before I

really got

into them.

maybe like three of my top 10 bands are artists that I like before I saw them live, with the exception of some where I, like I had seen a previous project of that person or something like that. But I think that is such an amazing way to connect with people and especially in the older generation.

Now I'm, I'm 29, [00:34:00] so I'm almost 30. I'm older than Gen Z, you know, I'm not one of these kids that grew up with Apple music and all that. But especially when you're twittering with Less Than Jake All of these older bands that have been around for 30 years.

Which side note, fun fact Vermont being Tiny Matte from Real Big Fish is from Barry where I live a town with like a population of 8,000 or something. Like what are the odds? that I know him. I don't know him. I just know of him

and that he's from here.

I

think he's in California. I don't know where he is.

Yeah, I think he's out in LA cuz he was

working

with Feldy for a while.

And he does so much music production now and like composing and like plays on every record. he crushes, He's unreal.

everything I've seen him put out sounds fantastic. But anyway, connecting with those older generations, you do that through live music because if they're listening to the radio, they're not hearing your music there. If they're on streaming, they're hearing the same 30 bands they've been listening to for the last 15 to 30 years.

If you wanna reach them, you have to play those live shows. And I think [00:35:00] there's a big shift there because a lot of these newer TikTok artists, which no disrespect to them whatsoever, like I love that artists can go out and become viral Magnolia Park, right example, they're doing big club tours now, like SIP plans, some 41, all that stuff.

But that is like such a minority, like most bands just are on that grind So speaking of these tours, you mentioned before the interview that you've been friends with Less than Jake for a while. So my question is, what happened first? Did you get on the tours with them first, or did you already know them and that relationship helped you get on the tour?

Already knew them. I'm not sure if that rela, I mean, I'm sure that has some influence because they know that we're just good people.

 

but I, I never asked. In fact, one of the last days of the last leg, Roger came into the green room and said that he, they were trying to find another band.

Cause Cliff diver couldn't do the whole run. And he, he had said, Why don't we take you flying? I, that that, may be the way that it was. I'm not sure. I just know that we got the cold email from their agents who at [00:36:00] the time, their agents at the time are my homies. So I was like, I thought maybe it's from the agents. I don't know. but I think it took us about eight seconds to confirm.

Yeah, that, that's not really the kind of thing you turn down unless there's something really wrong, like emergency level

tragedy,

 

At least for a band like, us,

it's like, are you kidding me? this is the best thing ever. So again, when we got asked to do these couple of quick shows on the East coast, coming up, it was like, yeah, what do you mean? 10 more shows with less than Jake on the East Coast where we already have been playing for years and have our people and the ticket is like a reasonable ticket. I think It's like, 25. I think. It's like, yeah, this is gonna be amazing. This is gonna be the best possible thing. That being said, it was great to play on the West Coast and all the mountain markets with them and bowling for suit because we never get to go all the way out [00:37:00] there because when you're a small DIY band, it's a lot harder we've only been there one time prior with Home Safe. And those shows were fun, but a smaller thing. But

um, being friends with them beforehand definitely made it probably easier on their end to be like, Yeah, this is a great idea. Cuz they're fun. we did, the last leg of their very long summer tour. And the vibe that I got is that our

presence coming in the way that we are off and on stage, which is eye energy, I think rejuvenated that last week for, for both the bands of like, wait a. minute, I know we're at the end. There's a new found fire here right now, and now I'm fired up.

For instance, on the last day we all had our shirts off running around on stage during Less Than Jake back and forth.

And then when Bowling for Soup closed out, the night Krista makes, did the same thing, but alone, just across the stage with no shirt on. And he came over to us side stage and he goes, I need you to know I haven't taken my shirt off on [00:38:00] stage in a really long time. and you guys got me fired up during our set. I felt the need and I was thinking to myself, That's

awesome. It is so awesome. Maybe you're just saying this, but maybe not. I love you, man. I've looked up to you since I was a kid. And yes, none of us are in the best shape and we're all on stage just taking the shirt off, having fun, because who cares?

it's so funny, I saw a comment on a, I think it was an enters ChAARI video from a festival, and someone was like, Oh, he doesn't shave his chest, and he took his shirt off. I'm like, Who cares? It's a summer festival. He's having fun. so I, I think it's really cool that Chris came up to you and like, was honest about that because that then turned around and gave that energy right back to you.

We're a different generation and also I didn't grow up with their circle of friends and bands. I wish I had often, I think, I wish I was born 12 years earlier cuz maybe I would've had a great time with rolling around with these bands like that era. But I wasn't. And I was just like, in that moment, I [00:39:00] really did feel like, wow, we are one unit. And then after that we're in the green room and it was just like a beautiful nightmare. It was amazing. Like all of us just like ending the tour strong together. Just hilarious. and it, it was like, Oh, this is my family.

It felt just then, you know, like I've known these people my whole life and I've been doing this with these people my whole life, and it was only nine shows,

to me that's success I'm assuming everybody went home with a big shit eating grin on their face like I did.

I, I assume I went home like I am on such a cloud nine right now. Nobody could take this from me.

I think one of the highlights there is, you've been touring, not with Keep flying, but in the industry with various bands working, playing whatever, for at least 10 years from what I know.

2005.

Okay, so 17 years, that is a long time to not get burnt out, not get jaded and still love what

you're doing.

there is burnout. do have burnout, myself [00:40:00] included. There are days where I'm like, Oh, no, Things like that randomly peppered in, make all of it worth it. And they're just a great reminder of why we're here. And also the patrons and the friends that come up to you after, and they're saying like, Yo, I never heard of you before, but what you said on stage tonight, and that one song, or this song or the way you guys were moving made me feel like I was 20 again.

Or, you know, I had someone pass away and you said this thing and it meant whatever it is. Like those little moments make me as a artist and entertainer feel validated. And, it reverses any, like, jadedness it's humbling actually. it's It's, quite humbling if this all ended tomorrow that's okay. I, I felt so many different feelings through all of this. , ups and downs, there's a reason why I and my band mates are still here doing this and not really making money from it because we still love it more than [00:41:00] if we were to be doing something else. Does that make sense?

yeah, absolutely. That's your passion is this is what you do. And anybody can go sit in a

cubicle for eight hours. I don't think

anyone really enjoys that.

that I could not do, I

past a place where I could ever possibly do that. I don't know how I would be able to do it, just because the way that I am, the way my life has been, I don't know how that would be possible.

Yeah. it'd just be like mind numbing.

think having that passion and that dedication, like there are so many artists who would, after just a few years of being on the road, not making any money, say, Okay, that's it. We're done. you've been at this, with this band for almost six years now. so many people would've given up by this point,

And many have during the

pandemic and coming outta the pandemic. And currently, like I said at the beginning of this combo, a lot of people more recently have been like, All right, here's the tell. I'm not done, but I, I gotta like be done for a little while.

Yeah, and no shame to those artists. if the pandemic or financial situations, financial [00:42:00] stress said, Hey, we can't tour anymore. I get it. But I also think it's really cool that you're not letting that stop you. Like you're still going out there and doing the thing.

I could speak for the whole band when I say if I didn't have this, I have no idea the state of my mental. which is not a topic we need to talk about cause it's not something that everyone wants to talk about. But I know that I need it. That's why it doesn't matter to me if it's five people or 5,000. I just need to like, get it outta my system and do like a 25 to a 35 minute in it exercise slash play my music. they're my songs. They mean a lot to me. And if they mean something to even three people, that that is enough for me. I'm I'm, bonding with other human beings via live music, which is something that I need.

don't drink, I don't really go to the bar. I don't bond with other people. I know what it is for people to do that. And I get that from playing songs and having somebody singing the words back. I have the same kind of, feeling that you get when you're [00:43:00] socializing in that way.

I also get it when I do, when I play board

games with friends, like playing board games also is another way that I have that with a smaller group, like when it, and it needs to be smaller and more concise.

having board game night where we're having food and playing that is like very healing for me. It's like very healthy

it's a way to be social without just having to make small talk that. seems like a huge part of it, which

I can totally relate to. I do not like small talk

everyone at a show It's like, we're here for live music. So it's like, okay. And we're upbeat, happier band. lyrically we have some really sad and dark lyrics, but we're, we present it in a very lighthearted way. And so it's like I'm surrounded by other people that are similar to me and it's just a really good environment. Why would I not want to be.

I mean, I go to shows all the time that I'm not playing that. I'm like, Oh, I don't feel good in here. like there's only two people in here I know. And like, I, you know, there's like a different energy. It's a totally different energy. [00:44:00] plenty of shows I've been to that have not felt welcoming at all, and very cold.

that's fine. But like we, do our best to make that the exact opposite. Peter, my drummer, will talk to almost every single person in a room. He'll go around and talk to almost every single person.

know, there's always the fans that wanna talk extensively, and I'm sure you do talk to your

fans, I know you do. That's, we started talking at the

show, but for some people they can do that for hours and others it's like, Hey, five minutes, that's enough.

Like, I gotta turn around, get a sip of water or seltzer or, or something. And take a breather

for a second.

everyone knows their own limit. Right. All good. But um, I know as a kid the bands that my old local band was opening up for, when I'd see them watching side stage, I remember how important it was to me and if they said anything at all after, it meant a lot to me. And also any time I went to see a band that I got to speak to after the show, I've never forgotten.

ever, you know [00:45:00] what I mean? Like, and it's, some of those band has been well over. 20 years still. I haven't for. Certain bands that I've toured with for work that have treated me well, I'll never forget that. And the opposite, certain bands that I didn't work for, but I was on tour with, you know, working for someone else who went out of their way for us.

I'll never forget that either. Like I, you don't forget the certain things. You know, the, the really good things. and the really bad things generally are the things we remember the most. so I know for me with kf, it's like, I don't want anybody to leave feeling like not good or feeling like they were rude or something that, that sucks. I've never had to hear that but like, I don't

want to hear that, ever. Like, if I hear that, I get nervous. I'm like, What? No way. Who, how could you possibly feel that way? what What, happened?

 

yeah. and I think that's part of the thing, like your shows from the one show I've seen exude this positive energy. energy on stage is you're all having a great time. Like, yeah, the lyrics sometimes are sad, but everyone there [00:46:00] should be having a good time. And I think that because your band is having a good time, it would be very difficult for them to put somebody else in a situation where they're not having a good time because the band is happy to be there.

I've seen so many artists where the band is clearly not happy to be playing that show. there was a band un warped one of the years that I was out there, they were supposed to do the last two shows and they canceled. And I talked to them like the next year and I was like, Hey, like people were looking forward to you.

Why'd they cancel? And they said, Oh, the singer didn't wanna do it, so he canceled. And I was really bummed about that. But then I realized, if he doesn't wanna be there, then it's just gonna be a lame set.

sucks to have them cancel, but.

It's not worth it.

There may not be

anything worse that is brutal when you can tell or anything like there's been stuff on stage with bands I've worked for and with Keep Flying where it's like someone's pissed at someone and you could, sometimes the crowd can tell and like that's not good either, but like it happens, you know what I mean?

And sometimes it's tough. To To mask it. [00:47:00] but, um, when someone says something to you, you've, when you, realize, Oh, was it really that obvious? It's like you can't help but feel like, I feel like I wish that I was less obvious about being frustrated with like the monitors or something, you know, a band mate performing the tempo too fast or something like this.

I don't want you to think that like, I'm up there pissed off. I'm not pissed off. I'm just trying to like course correct to fix this cuz we don't use, click track. So it's like we're setting the tempos on stage and different, depending on the song, different members start the tempo and it's like, if we play it too fast, it sucks.

If we play it too slow, it sucks.

You, gotta find the sweet spot

that's like where the song belongs.

We crash into each other on stage, so the instruments get hit, and we fall out of tune and it'll be like, not noticeable sometimes but then sometimes, midway through a song, it's like, Dude, your guitar, you must tune it.

it fell out. You hit someone and it got out of tune, please tune

Yeah. Yeah. It happens. And I, I think, you [00:48:00] know, that's part of it is things go wrong and going with the flow, having that very laid back production where you're just willing to accept it. You're like, Hey, this happened. We're gonna correct it. We're gonna make it. think that's a great attitude for a DIY band without a huge budget to have because you can make it work.

unless the guitar snaps in half, you can make it work There's always a solution to at least get you through those

next few songs in the set.

Oh, we, we have straight up played on, full on all broken gear.

we ain't gonna cancel, but it is what it is.

Let's just figure it out, like make the best of it.

Yeah. Absolutely. Well, hey, it's been just about an hour, so I wanna wrap things up here cuz I know you got stuff to do, but I really appreciate you coming on the show, before we drop all the keep flying links and tell people where to learn more. One last question is,

as a DIY artist who has been in the industry, 15, 16 years doing stuff, both as an artist, as a team member for various bands.[00:49:00]

is the most important piece of advice, big or small, that you would give to an artist who's just starting out today?

I know that's a huge question. It could be anything. Mindset, money, whatever you think people should know that you wish you'd known 15 years ago.

Honestly, the thing that gets asked to me a lot by friends bands that are looking for advice, for some reason we're in the era where a lot of bands think that they should wait for things. I e wait to put the new song up because they're trying to get signed or wait to book their own shows cuz they're to get support on a tour or wait on whatever it is. I'm sure somebody could come on here and, and. Argue The other side of this, but I think that's a huge discredit to what you're doing, because there is no time, especially post pandemic. I don't know why anyone would wait

or waste any time. There's no time to waste if you're too silent for [00:50:00] too long, people might just move on and forget about you.

If you don't make the moves, If you're doing nothing and you're stagnant,

like not only will I think it affect you, on the internet where people forget, But like, even like within the band, the dynamic between people, if you're not getting together, everything shifts, everything drifts away when there's no attention on something, Right?

It's just a natural thing of life. So I've had a lot of friends over the last couple years be like, Well, I'm waiting on this. I'm waiting on this. And I, my response is always, Why? Seriously though? why why, would you wait? there seems like there's no point in waiting. It's like, well, you know, Well, what if, Well,

what if, if, if happens, then you'll deal with it.

But if doesn't happen, then you did nothing

that goes for all, any ambition, anything. I still kick myself that I haven't packed Europe. I've been to Europe a million times for work. I've had a couple of stay after a tour or start, early before a tour. But I've always wanted to do the [00:51:00] thing that a lot of friends have done, which is just simply go for like a month and like just do hosts with my backpack and just see the other things I haven't gotten a chance to see with the touring and go to the few other places that the bands don't go to. And I've just never done it because I just don't find the time and I kick myself every time. I'm like, How am I not finding the time? Granted now it's like I'm trying to really, play rock and roll and like that takes my time. But like for a minute, I didn't, I wasn't doing that.

And I still kick myself for not doing it because now I have to worry, well, will I ever do it now? And I won't be satisfied. I'll again, another 10 years from now I'm gonna be going. I can't believe I still didn't do that. Like all I wanted to do was that, and I simply could have, and I just didn't. I chose not to. So, I don't know. I just feel like any ambition with business or music or art or enter to anything, why would you not? I recently asked a buddy if he can find out for me how to apply for the Blue Man group. He asked me if I was kidding and I [00:52:00] responded half, but also half, not, because I've always wondered how cool it could be if I was a blue man in one of the, formations of the Blue Man group.

that would be fantastic.

So I asked because you gotta start somewhere.

And asking Can't hurt. what's the worst that can happen? Somebody says no.

At least I asked

 

I could see myself doing that. Truly. This is not even a bit, it was a bit, and it evolved very far from. With my best friend. It's like, Brother, what if you were in the Blue Man group? It's like, what if I was,

And Boston's pretty cool. Vegas, New York has one too, I think,

right?

and they're all, they're different, people in these, you

know,

and different shows too, if I

recall. they're each unique with some overlap.

it's always been interesting to me and I just, I'm like, well, I, you know, that kind of performance would be very fun for me. It's like high energy performance.

it's such a cool and unique performance. Like I've seen some people play, online tubes and stuff,

the [00:53:00] PVC pipes, and it's like, okay, they've inspired that. But I've yet to see a band bring that out It's still such a

unique instrument.

I'll be honest. with keep flying, expect anything. Who knows we've had so many different random instruments come up on that

stage and just rogue play something that doesn't even work in the song at all. And it's like, we're just up there.

Like, who cares? This is

Yeah.

Like you never know. You never know what's gonna happen. I would not rule it out.

Well, I hope that someday I'll see a keep playing

show with the blue man group tubes. That would

be

day it's

you. I hope it's you coming out with the pipes.

I

have a slide whistle. I can bring the slide

whistle

has somebody done that with us? I don't think so. Maybe actually, maybe one.

Oh, well next time you're in Vermont, I will bring this

along if I remember

Bring it. We can figure out what key that thing is in and which song it would work on.

Sounds like a plan. Well, John, thank you so much for being here today. I really appreciate it. those who don't remember [00:54:00] from just barely an hour ago, the introduction, John, Chances Ryan, from Keep Flying, You can find, Keep Flying At, Keep Flying Band on Instagram or their website is keep flying.band.

It's not.com. It's dot band. Anywhere else I should send people today to check out the band.

That's it.

All right.

Yeah. Google has everything. Keep flying and you'll find everything.

Yep.

All right. Perfect. Well, John, again, thank you so much. I hope you have an amazing day and enjoy your time in Chicago.