Welcome to Episode six of the band Hive Podcast.

Welcome back. My name is James. I'm one of your co hosts and I'm here with your other co host, Aaron Gingras from the band Suburban Samurai. How's it going today, man?

What's going on? Not much. Just, uh, another day, Another podcast or should I say another week? Another podcast. Since he's come out weekly, I think Daily might be a little much for the podcast. That would be, ah, lot that that would be a lot. We would dio as many episodes in a month and a half as we plan on doing in a year, so that yeah, that would be pretty draining. I don't think that's ever gonna happen for this podcast, but never say never, right. So this week we have a very fact based topic, which still has our opinions, but it's not one of those long, rambling, rabbit hole days.

We just We have an outline. We're gonna talk about it, and it's fact based. What is our topic today, Erin? Yeah. So we're going to get into We're gonna talk about why people should outsource some of the work that they've been doing and maybe a few of the reasons why. And you know what? Bit of work you should outsource when Yeah, and just jumping right in. Because this is gonna be a long episode, maybe even our first two parter. That's to be determined. But the first reason why people outsource work and why maybe you in your band should outsource work is time.

Everybody has, ah finite amount of time that you can use each day, each week or a month or a year. And sometimes you just don't have enough time. And that's when you have to hire someone else or outsource it or delegated or do something. So you have more time, though I would say the caveat is, if you waste a lot of time, focus on that first. If you have a lot of time that you're wasting playing call of duty for six hours a day or something at that point.

Focus on that first, but let's say you've already optimized, just scheduled to a point where you still have some time for fun. You know, you play video games a little bit here and there, but you're not playing six hours a day. You're not binging Netflix for six hours a day or anything like that, you've optimized your schedule, so it's well balanced between work and fun. But you still don't have enough time. That is when you should outsource work. Another reason to outsource work is if you don't have the skill to do something properly.

If you can kind to do it, depending on what it is, I would still say Outsource it if it's something really important, like your band's overall image or the sound of your band from a recording standpoint, that is something that I would outsource if you aren't 100% confident that you can make a commercially viable recording. I think it just kind of ties into that whole idea of you should know where you should be, and then maybe you should have an idea of where you shouldn't be, you know, just kind of having, like, a grasp on, like, your strengths and your weaknesses and kind of, you know, using that understanding toe your advantage, you know, kind of playing up the strengths and sort of, you know, outsourcing or finding ways.

to, uh, kind of cover some of the things that you might not be a strong at. Definitely. It's all about knowing your strengths and weaknesses and, like you say, just knowing where you should be and what your capabilities are, what could use a little bit of improvement and sometimes the answers. Well, I have a good friend who is a total master at this. I'm going to shoot him a little bit of work. Yeah, exactly. And it comes down essentially to one thing, which I'm not going to get there quite yet because I know people are going to say, Oh, well, I could do it myself.

I have the time. Oh, well, you know, I kind of know how to do that. It's I have the skills to do this. But even if you do have time and skill to do it, is that time that you're spending on it, the best thing you could be doing with that time, and this is where we get to the concept of opportunity cost. Every time you choose to do something, you were actively choosing not to do something else. So, for example, you could say you're going to play video games for an hour.

It's possible that that is a now er well spent because you need to de stress and you just need to relax and enjoy yourself. That's fine, but when you get to that second hour, you probably don't need that anymore, and you could be doing something productive with that time. So by choosing to play a second hour of video games, that's a now ER that you could spend on booking shows, writing songs, practicing your instrument because that's something that I think we could all strive to do. Mawr's practice our instrument on a daily basis, half an hour or an hour every day, just to build up your skills over the long term and a consistent, reliable manner.

That opportunity cost can apply to other things as well. If you in a d i y band using the term that Aaron likes to apply, which is decided yourself exactly do it yourself is a very restrictive term because realistically, you can't be good at everything. That's just a fact of life. But D I y decided yourself. You still have control. It's still your baby, your project. But you're not afraid to ask for help when you need it. First and foremost, I did not come up with that term, but it's stuck with me and, uh, you know, the source from which I'm borrowing that I first heard a guy used that who, you know, is one of the guys in his band.

Um, you know, who is, uh My understanding is that he over a long period of time, had taken on more of the managerial role. And, you know, he was, you know, one of the people, Um and you know, he's found what I would consider to be great success in doing what he's doing. And, um So in other words, I did not come up with that. I really wish I did, But, uh, you know the person who I think it did, um is a trusted source and, you know, and he's been able to do ah lot with the time, you know, we all have the same number of minutes in each day.

Um, and it's all about I think, how you come at it. And, um, if you choose to believe that decided yourself is still like a viable, uh, you know thing toe live by, let's gonna get you as much street cred is, do it yourself. I think if you're able to, you know, bring yourself to that point you're you're set up pretty good. Definitely. And I think something that we could all learn is sometimes it's better to let someone else handle it. And that's what opportunity cost is about.

If you could spend 10 hours designing your band's logo, but you have friend that you could pay to do it, and they'll do it in a now er so you save 10 hours by paying someone else to design your logo. Well, obviously they're going to do a better job at it, because if they could do it in an hour, they clearly have the skill to do it. They're probably also going to do a better job because they know how graphic design works. They're not just figuring out Photoshop for the first time, but you can use that 10 hours to practice to market your next show, be it by hanging fliers or telling people about it.

Going to online groups for the music scene in your area, just touching base with people one on one saying My band's playing a show or you could spend that time writing songs. There are so many other things that you could dio by instead of being that guy says I do everything myself and just saying no, You know what, my friend X y Z is better This he or she could do a great job. I'm going to pay that person to do this, and I'm going to focus on what I do best because that is what you are selling as a band is what you do best playing music.

You're not selling your logo. And if you want to have a good logo, sometimes it might mean you have to have somebody else do it. I think that that's like, good practice to, um, it's good practice for, um, you know, meeting interacting with other, you know, with the graphic design example like artistic people on and on. But it's sort of like a good way to build trust with other people and sort of It's a good way to practice, like surrounding yourself with people who do good work and you trust.

And because, you know, if you end up, you know, pursuing a career like a real career in music or any of the arts like that's going to be something that I think is really important, Uh, to, you know, be able to do that's gonna offer a lot of peace of mind when you have a team built around you. When you get to that point, um, you know who you can trust and you can kind of sleep at night knowing that, you know, you're all on the same page.

So I think that's a like a really great early way, too kind of, you know, start working on that. Definitely. And it could build a sense of community, too, and we'll get to have that works in just a few minutes before we jump into what work you can outsource. Let's talk a little bit about who should be outsourcing work, because it really depends on what kind of work is being done, and there's certain work that as a d I band, you wouldn't want outsource, and it would be really expensive and kind of silly to outsource.

So that would be things like If you're a D I y band, you don't need to get a booking agent or a manager or anything like that, because that's something that you're perfectly capable of doing. It's literally just sending emails or making phone calls and at some point down the line, if you blow up or find great success or, you know, transition to a point where you're, you know, going commercial, it's probably not a bad thing toe. Know how to do all of that yourself anyways? Yeah, definitely.

I mean, I'm sure there have been road managers or tour managers who have quit in the middle of a tour, and if you have a basic understanding of what's going on, you could say, Okay, you know what? It's not all gonna fall apart like I can keep the show running for a day or two until we find the good replacement who's not going to quit in the middle of the tour. But if you're that clueless person who has never done that and has e don't want to say been handed everything, but you've had a team do it for you the whole way.

You're not going to know what to Dio. And unless you find a replacement right away, your tour might fall apart and that would be awful. That's not something you ever want to happen. Learning opportunity. A very painful learning opportunity. Yes, yes, this is true. It would be a learning opportunity. So now moving on to what work should be outsourced. And this is by no means an exhaustive list. Thes air. Just things that we came up with that a d I. Y band will likely face at some point in their career.

And the first one is graphic design. Pretty much any band should outsource their graphic design with a few caveats. A NA artist should really outsource big things that affect their branding in their career and will create a lasting impression. So that would be things like album or a P or single cover artwork and the inside of the booklet and the photography, which we Actually, we don't have photography on this list, but that kind of falls under graphic design, even though it's done by different people. I would say that it's very similar because you need to have photos for your booklets.

If you're doing album Martin stuff like that visual aesthetic exactly. And how as a band, can you even take your own pictures? Unless it's a selfie like that's just they go hand in hand. You should hire a graphic designer and photographer for any big thing that creates a lasting impression. Merch is another one of those where you should have a professional designer, but things that really aren't gonna be going down in the history books for your band, like posters or flyers handbills, that kind of stuff, they don't matter as much.

You can easily do those yourself using something like canvas c a n v a dot com, which is like a free tool that you can use to make basic graphic stuff. And honestly, it works really well. It's easy, and it looks good and it works, but it doesn't do professional design for shirts or albums or something. Anything like that. You could do album Martin Canada, but it's not gonna look as good as it will if you hire Ah, professional graphic designer. And then, if you like again building the relationship like you may love it, you may use that person you know, time and time again after that.

Or like, I think it's probably just a valuable to know, you know, maybe where you shouldn't spend your time or money. If it's for whatever reason, you know that relationship doesn't end up working out. It zawl. That's a good learning opportunity to learning opportunity. The word of the day? Yeah, definitely. And the other caveat that I would say is if there is an actual graphic designer whose day job or at least side gig is a graphic design, then by all means, have that person in your band do your logo.

Do your album art as long as they're a competent graphic designer who gets paid for what they do on a somewhat regular basis. But if none of you have any idea about graphic design, just outsource it. That's just that's a simply as I can put it is if one of you actually does graphic design for money, do it. If you don't do graphic design for money, have someone else do it. Decide it yourself that somebody else is better at this than you are and have them do it.

If you want to keep it. D I y is possible. Talk to other bands in the scene because I guarantee one of the other bands in your town has a graphic designer in their lineup. I will say we've got in Sub Sam, my guitar player. Graphic design is not what he spends his Monday through Friday doing, but he is much more visually incline. Or he understands what it means to put something together visually, uh, much better than I do. And so even though there are bits and pieces where you know, we do make that phone call, that is something where you might find that somebody within the band is able to knock out a lot of the work.

But not some of it, or some of the work and not a lot of it, or their parts of that where you know you can explore on your own and kind of you can probably knock out a lot of it to begin with. And then again, part of learning experience of like Okay, like, you know, it ties into your point of opportunity cost, like we might like it. But is it taking a lot longer than it would take somebody else or, you know, do we like it?

But we think we can improve. And does that mean going elsewhere? Or it may be It means you're sticking with your own person, too, but it's always worth exploring. Um, and I mean, heck, at the end of the day, I think it's like Egypt that always says like all right, I've written apart for this song and I think that's how it's going to stay. But I'm going to try everything else over it, just to see if I could make it that much better. And at the end of the day, if I come back to the first thing that I wrote, like you know, that's what it should be So yeah, I think definitely try everything.

And I think there's there's something to be said for feeling comfortable admitting that, you know, I'm gonna see how somebody else you know would handle this. Like, maybe they'll do a better job. Yeah, and that's the kind of thing to you can always. If you're not sure, do your own design and then see if somebody else can come up with something better as long as you can be objective, not say, Oh, mine's better. Like if you can look at them side by side and be objective and not have that emotional attachment to what you did yourself on.

There's nothing wrong with that emotional attachment. But when you're deciding what is going to look better for your band in the long term, when somebody says, Oh, man, this album was so good, like I can't believe that was 10 years ago. They look at it and they see something drawn with crayon and then scanned and printed. Or they see like a nice album cover done by professional. But it's quite possible that even if you don't do it professionally, you're very good at. If you're just artistically talented and that's your other hobby, maybe that works out.

But they're also specific design requirements that pressing houses for CDs will require. So if you are going to do your own art, make sure that you look into that as well. Moving on. Do you wanna take away our next category much like graphic designing that? That's something you could kind of do a lot of thinking about, um, just in terms of what you keep in house vs Outsource early on recording and mixing. Um, that's another one that you can early on could really do a lot of thinking about because you're making sound from day one, whether it's on a record or just in the practice room.

That's part of it from the very first step that you take and sort of, as you pointed out earlier. It's one of the easiest things to get wrong, and this is in thinking about recording and sort of recording a record or mixing a live show. As you pointed out before it's it's literally what you're there to do. It is your product. It's what you're making. You know, if you're like the cook, it's like that's the meal that you're preparing like That's the one thing out of everything you would hopefully definitely wanna nail.

Andi kind of get it right. Much like sort of how you would outline like, Hey, you might have a a friend and an advance. You might have a friend and, um, you know, another band in town who's really talented at something that's something that's worth exploring. You know, unless you have that, you know, archetype within your band, you know who's you could be all about sound and still not really be ableto pull it off all that well, Uh, it might be a passion, but it just might not have, you know, really ever three output, uh, might not be put together that, well, eso that's another one.

I think that's probably worth exploring. Um, yourself is you want to know if you want to get better at it, that's great. But you know your strengths and your weaknesses and for us, much as you can do on a laptop on a couch these days, like it's absolutely worth exploring. Like who's in town? Who's within driving distance, who who's not within driving distance but like who I'd enjoy making a record with. It's like it's it's what everybody's going to judge you on. It's one of those things again, where you can do it yourself, but that doesn't mean it's gonna be done Well, if you could do it well yourself.

That's awesome. I mean, I've talked to some artists and seeing the progression because I'm a mixed engineer myself, so I'm a little biased with this. But I'm always willing to listen to an artist's work and give them feedback and help them learn how they can improve, because it's all part of. We're all in this together. We're trying to create music. So, for example, is an artist who the first mix he ever sent my way was just awful. And I'm not gonna name it because it was so bad, like I don't want to throw under the bus.

But over about six months, he would send me a mix every week or two, and I'd give him some pointers and feedback on it. And then at the end of the six months, he was putting out mixes that were almost as good as what I dio because I had said here, you know, this is what you need to work on improve. You know, check out this YouTube video here, check out that, and this is a whole another topic. But he was. Rather than focusing on one song and trying to perfect that one song, he was just pumping out a song every week, saying, This is or you know, every two weeks saying, This is what I'm doing right now And he got so much practice in by doing a song every week or two that his mixes are way better than the people who spend six months mixing one song.

And then at the end of six months they've practiced on one song. He did so many songs that he just got better and better and better. And that's how you improve is by doing something a lot, not by focusing on one thing until it's absolutely perfect. That side story there. My point is you can do this. You can do it well. But unless you know you could do it well, you shouldn't do it. I think that's the key. Mike Learning Mic drop like learning about yourself on being comfortable with, sort of admitting you're not the best at something.

And there's a whole bunch of things that I'm horrible at, you know? And it's just about getting to the point where you could say that for the recording thing. I just sort of thinking, um, it's about It's and I guess, sort of As with all of these topics, graphic design and the other view of coming up. Um, it's It's sort of like a trade off like and it's specifically for recording, like, Is that such an intimate, you know, experience like it's like, you know, we're recording. This is it.

You know, if you do outsource and you do have somebody sitting in the other room, you know, kind of guiding that whole process with that, there's a little bit less that you need to worry about. Or there are things that you don't need to worry about because you have that other person. They're supporting the process and, as you're saying, sort of offering sort of these pseudo like outside or feedback which, like that's, you know, could be considered like a pretty useful tool and like growing as a musician or if you're also, like, you know, inclined and really in the audio.

You could probably learn a lot from that person with that respect. But, um, but then also, you know, if you do build yourself up to the point where you are comfortable with, you know, the work that you turn out, uh, your recordings I could see myself in that position, like being maybe a little bit more comfortable just cause it's like you got your clothes, you know, close circle of friends, your bandmates to people you see all the time on DSO That might be cool to, but then you also don't have that outside of perspective.

And sometimes that's what you need to kind of grow a little bit and sort of make yourself a little bit uncomfortable to try those things. Um, and also, if you got the guy in the other room like chances are, he's going to know what he's doing. And there's a lot of value and knowing what you're doing. And that's what the whole episodes about. And, you know, going back decades, artists have had that guy in the room or that girl in the room recording with them. And even though you can do it yourself now, I think it's so important to have another set of ears because that person in the other room isn't just hitting record.

They have spent years perfecting their craft, but what that means is that they're technically proficient. But they also know music really, really well, so they can say, Hey, you know what? Instead of going up 1/5 in that last harmony. Try it. Knocked it down. So it's still 1/5. But you're below the root note, you know, or things like that. You know, that might sound totally funky. It might sound weird, but it might work. You never know until you try it. But having that person who hasn't heard this song 30,000 times while you're writing and perfecting it, having that new set of fresh ears on it, they might hear something different.

And that might just make the song. I mean a F. I. My favorite band. They have their album Sing the Star. 0, 15 years ago, they released some of the demos for that album and some of the demos you couldn't tell. Okay, like it just it's a better recording on the album. Other demos. It's a totally different songs like Okay, the chorus is more or less the same, but the verses are entirely different. The pre courses of different the Bridges, like, didn't exist before. That's the producer because the producer sits down and listens to the demos and says, Well, you know what?

What if we tried this? We move this around here and we do this and do that having that extra set of years, and I mean no offense to F. I like I love their songs. Some of those songs I listened to the demo I'm like, Yeah, that's definitely not nearly as good Like the producers saved that song. And these days Ah, lot of people call themselves a producer when they're really a recording engineer, or vice versa. I would highly suggest finding somebody who could do both. Somebody has a good ear for music and complain music and understands what goes into writing a song, but can also do the recording and knows audio theory, but also knows music theory, at least to an extent.

Our next thing that you should outsource. And this is another thing that really you can outsource from the start is accounting and tax prep, because accountants can advise you what business structure you should use for your band. And there's no one size fits all here. It depends on how you and your band mates work together. It depends on what state you're in or what country if you're not in the US, for example, here in Vermont, I would say most bands should form an LLC a limited liability corporation because, like $120 a year, and it greatly reduces the liability that you personally have.

But in California, it costs $800 a year to have an LLC, which is absolutely insane. So I would never recommend that unless you were really worried about liability. Or you are making a considerable amount of money from your band. So having an accountant attacks prep person, they can help you decide which structure is best for you. They'll advise you on how to set up a business bank account and run all your income and expenses through that account. So it's separate and everybody in the band can see and understand.

Okay, this is where we spent money. This is where we got money, and it will help reduce conflict. And then you'll use software like Wave, APS or QuickBooks to see where your money is coming in where it's going out. Super easy stuff to dio. But it's just so much easier if you hire someone to do it for you. I always hiring an accountant for my personal taxes and my business of taxes because it's just so much easier. Like if I have to go through and do it all myself.

It takes me hours and hours and hours, or I compile a report from Wave apse, which is what I use. Send it out, put in a few notes, saying, You know, like, Here's this Here's that ask some questions And for 200 bucks, it's done like it's so easy to dio when I have somebody else do it and it comes down the opportunity cost. Yeah, I could do it myself, but is it worth $200 to spend 12 hours doing this when he could do it in two hours or an hour?

Of course. I'm gonna pay the $200 to do that because I wanna have a day of my life back. It's done, you know? It's done right. You know, not saying that. I think you'd be one to throw somebody under the bus. But if for whatever reason isn't done right, there's that extra layer of you know. Well, that's not because I didn't do it right. Yeah, My account is great. He actually, um he has a guarantee. Like if you get audited, he will help you go through it. And if there's any mistake's found out, if it's his mistake, he'll take care of it.

But of course, if it's my mistake, if I didn't send him the proper numbers or something, then that's totally on me. How would he know? I didn't send him the correct numbers, and that's totally fair. But it is nice to know that if I get audited, he will sit down and go through it with me and help me get everything ready to show the I. R s that alone. That's like an insurance policy for really cheap saying that I'm not in this alone like Come on, I'll take that.

Well, that's one of those things, too. Like like that that whole world And I'm not a CPA. But yeah, that changes year to year like there's so it's so labor intensive like stuff to keep up with. And it's just I just imagine I think it would be difficult to formulate an argument against hiring somebody whose job it is toe be on the up and up on bond be current and with their understanding of how all that works. Yeah, and especially if you're the kind of person who just doesn't like to do math like taxes is all math.

If you don't like math, hire someone in general. You should hire someone because they can also help show what each band member made or lost from the band in that year. Because if you're a partnership or an LLC or anything other than a sole proprietorship, each band member is gonna have to file taxes separately for their share of the band's activity. So that is the whole mass that an accountant can help with this, say each person you know it's easy, if you, for example, have four members and split it 25% each.

But let's say, you know, there's bands out there where, like, the singer gets 50% and then the other four members split that 50% so they get 12. 5% each. It's like, First of all, I don't think that's fair, and I don't advocate for that. But there are bands out there, and if you have a structure like that, that's gonna get really complicated really quickly, and having account is gonna make it so much easier. Plus, they will also make sure that each band member gets paid correctly according to your partnership agreement, which you should have if you don't have one yet and in the long term, having this all documented by a third party.

If there's ever any dispute over money, you have that neutral third party. So by that I should add in. I wouldn't suggest hiring like your sister, your brother in law. You know anyone related to one particular member because you wanted to be a neutral third party that everyone is okay with. And if there is a dispute that that person can help you out collectively for another thing that you can outsource and you should not hire a family member or close friend speaking of third parties yes, they're neutral.

Third party. Take away this next one. Aaron Management's another one of these things that, Ah, lot of people you know, it seems sort of like it's a mystical, you know thing. Ah, lot of people think that they understand what it is. A lot of people probably don't, but it in truth, it's it's something that what it is and what that person or what those people dio totally varies from artists artist, where you live geographically what kind of music you play? You know what? If we're talking about music at all, if you're like a live performer of some sort, like if you're a dancer, if you're, um you know, and of course what?

You know what level of success you know you're currently kind of sitting at There are a couple of ways to sort of think about, you know, Hey, is this something that I should explore? Um, it should always be something that you explore. And I think the question is, if it's something that you act upon, um, one way to look at it could be, Hey, when I get to the point where I'm generating X, you know, thousands of dollars of income from this, You know, this bands live show or recording or whatever it is that you're doing, Um, you know, it's really up to you.

I think one important thing to take into account is something that we've talked about a few times so far. This episode, which is three opportunity cost. So at what point is it no longer worth it for me, educationally or also, you know, as additional points on my resume at What point is it not worth it for me to continue doing X, y or Z on my own? And is it worth it for me to spend the money, Oftentimes a percentage of your income to hire somebody else to do those tasks for you?

And it's sort of definitely ah, leap. You know, when you feel like you've reached that point, it's, you know, you're only going to know after you've you've tried it. Um, but it's one of those things where arguably for Aziz, personal of a thing is like your your band's image or graphic design. Um, your artwork, uh, the mixes and your songwriting is personal. Is all of those things feel? I'd kind of argue that management traditionally what those people would dio, you know, booking the tours, making the broad strokes decisions about what direction the band's headed.

Where and why. Um, that's something that arguably you should kind of hold close to your chest for a zoo long as you can, but it is very important to recognize you know, if you should be, uh, if you're headed in this direction and this is what you want. It's important to recognize when you hit that point where? You know, boy, I'm I'm losing more than I'm gaining by continuing to take this work on myself. If you do reach that point where you're starting to explore what it would mean to hire that person under your team, it'd be good to, you know, if your if you want a ice cream store and you're hiring ice cream scoop staff, you're gonna wanna look at the resume.

They're probably high schoolers, and they're probably not gonna have one. But you're going to be interested. So just the same, you're gonna wanna management is such an integral and tightly intertwined part of, like, your team. They're gonna become part of your core. And you're sure is how we're gonna want to have a very firm understanding of where they've come from, whether it's what their motivations are like, who reached out to who, where you sort of in the market. You've decided you're shopping for a manager or did you reach a point where somebody approached you and that kind of caused you to like take a second, take a step back and evaluate where you are?

You're gonna want to know what their motivations are, uh, who they've worked with in the past, what they've been able to do for those people. And where were they in their career before they started working together at the end of the day? Um, it also may be worth noting that because the future is today, uh, anybody could see or what you're doing on the Internet. So if you crank out really awesome song or a mix or whatever it is that you dio, you throw up on the Internet.

And for some reason, um, somebody who has quite the reputation reaches out to you. Um, it also, you know, that doesn't not happen. That doesn't happen to a lot of people, but it happens. And it's worth thinking about that. If you end up being contacted or if you're presented with an opportunity which truly would be an opportunity and would truly open, uh, you know, more doors than it would close. That's something to think about, too. But at the end of the day, it's worth understanding what it is about yourself and about your band that's worth protecting on and keeping close.

And then it's also worth understanding what you're missing out on by doing so. And at what point would it be worth? Kind of letting go some of those things learning to delegate and kind of trust other people with with your baby and it's again, not 11 size fits all is is with any of these other things that you said, Um, but it is. If you're serious about what you're doing, it's worth thinking about. Yeah, it's one of those things where the manager will take a percentage, as Erin said.

So it's in their best interest to make you more money. I would advocate against ever taking a flat fee management deal because then there's no incentive. There's no care on a stick. But if there is a percentage deal, which is typical like I say, that's fine. But I would also say that even if it's ah, manager with super high profile clients, they might not be the best fit for you because they might know how to keep ah, high profile client at a high profile. But they might have no idea how to grow a band from a smaller level up onto that high profile level.

They might have someone on their team who could do that. So definitely ask and talk to them and see what results they've gotten. Don't just disregard them, but find out if they have done something like that before. Find out. Say, Hey, have you ever taken a band from the small club level up to the arena level? If you don't want to play arena? Some people don't but say, Have you taken bands from small club level up to the theater level? Something like that, You know, take a look and have that conversation and and the music business in general.

Somebody says, Hey, let me offer you this deal But you have to sign it right now and sticks a piece of paper in your face. Don't do it there. If it's so urgent, there's something else going on sleep on it. At the end of the day, this is be borrowing another line from another person, but it's it's stuck with me, which is there's never gonna be anybody who works is hard for you as you will. But if you ever find yourself in a position where you're thinking about management or somebody to help you with any of the stuff, try to find somebody who's close.

Yeah, here's another one. Not on this list. Just real quick. Entertainment lawyer. If you ever get presented by any type of deal any like this, like anything that is a long term thing that will affect your band hiring entertainment lawyer, I don't care if it costs $500 an hour to do that. It shouldn't take them more than an hour to go over a contract and tell you about it and summarize it and say, Okay, this is you know, this is what's in your corner. It's a good deal.

It's a bad deal. Whatever. Don't take the entertainment lawyer that the person trying to make the deal with you suggests Find your own. Don't hire any lawyer. Don't hire a real estate lawyer. Don't hire a personal injury lawyer. Hire an entertainment lawyer. I don't care if you have to go to Nashville or L. A or New York City. Boston You know some big music industry city. There are entertainment lawyers around. You can find one. I will say there are multiple entertainment lawyers in Burlington, Vermont, that is a of all places, so it Z it is a real thing, and it is really worth it.

Yeah, And chances are if if you're looking at something that somebody put in front of you and your well, e don't understand this whole thing or like oh, if if you just If the word lawyer pops into your head like if you get spooked by any of it, chances are it's probably what you should do with it. Yeah, or even if you think you understand it, have someone else look at it. Yeah, the worst thing that's gonna happen is like, Yeah, you're gonna shell out some cash but like that person is either going to reaffirm.

Yes, you do understand this correctly, which is great, and it's gonna make you feel good. But they're also going to catch the couple of things that you might have missed or that you weren't understanding. Quite right. Yeah. And they can help you negotiate than to like, because anytime somebody offers you a contract, it's negotiable. If there's something you don't like, talk to them, ask them to take it out or make it better or whatever, and that's really what it comes down to. A contract is a deal and for any deal.

Negotiation is natural that z just unfortunate fact of life. So, yeah, hiring an entertainment lawyer like Aaron said, Yeah, it's gonna cost you a chunk of change. But either it's going to make you a bunch of money because they say, Yeah, it's a good deal and help you negotiate and get that deal or they save you a ton of money because you don't get ripped off. So think about it. Yeah, you're gonna have to pay $500 But either you're gonna make way more than $500 or you're gonna save yourself from losing thousands of dollars by getting ripped off.

You know, maybe not even $1000 if you get ripped off in the wrong way. There are bands who have broken up because they had a bad label deal and couldn't get out of it. I've seen bands that did manage to get out of label deals, and I was really impressed by the fact that they actually pulled it off. But more often than not, I've heard of bands just saying, You know what? We can't do this anymore because we have a bad deal. Were not happy with our label.

They own our band name for the next album. Three albums, five albums for life, whatever. So this band ceases to exist. Maybe they come back with a different band name, but maybe not. It all depends on how restrictive the deal was. I mean, their label deals that say, You know, even if you put something out under a different their name, we still own it because it's you, you know, I think that's not a good deal to take. I think that's the kind of thing where those bands didn't have a lawyer look over a contract and either, you know, some fairly high profile bands that this has happened.

to, like Streetlight Manifesto, had a huge dispute with their label and basically broke up about it. I mean, they still do tours and stuff once in a while, but not nearly as much as they used to and their last album, that album, from 2012 2013, was literally called the hands that thieve, and it was about their label at the time. So hire a lawyer, Please. I don't care how much it costs. Just hire a lawyer. So next on our list Mrs something that's really handy for when you're on tour.

If you're at a level where it's becoming a little too much to manage your daily schedule and keep track of all the hotels you've booked a few booked hotels, and what venue is where and all that kind of stuff is a day to day manager. They're kind of like an assistant tour manager, but you know, they don't do as much the tour manager would. So it's somebody who helps you run your day to day lives while you're on the road does your scheduling. But you still are doing the planning yourself or having your management company.

If you have a manager doing the planning and these are the kind of people who can double up on merch, front of house audio lighting, background check anything like that, they're just basically an assistant who focuses on the business side of things while you focus on playing the show. Would you say a day to day manager would do the settlement at the end of the night? Or would that fall? Man, I would say that you got to counter touring with you. That guy would. There that person would total.

And then, if not, yeah, I would fall to, ah, tour manager. And then if you don't have a tour manager, it would fall to whoever is most responsible in the band. But if you have a day to day manager out there or if you have somebody out there who you're calling a day to day manager, then if you feel like you have a good relationship with that person and that's one of the things you wanna assign to them, then if they're trustworthy, knowledgeable, totally. I guess the way I would look at it maybe is if you've been doing settlements at the end of the show for years and you just have a day to day manager now and they've never done it before.

Show them how it works, you know, teach them what to do. And obviously, for D i Y bands, ah, settlement isn't gonna be a complex as it would be for an arena tour or even the large club tour. Unless you're a D i Y bandit, the large club level which, if you are props to you. But yeah, that's basically it for a day to day management somebody who helps you around there like a personal assistant but also help just run your life on the road, which could be really useful.

And, you know, they'll do things like they'll run the accounts while you're going along and make sure that you have money to get to the next show. Things like that. This next one is kind of a big one because it's something that every major band absolutely needs. But I see a lot of D I Y bands who are just starting out hire this person when they really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really extremely do not need it. So it sort of sounds like we're talking about the publicist and that sort of a tricky one to navigate.

It's interesting because because the future is absolutely now, as an individual, you or I are able to do so much more, um, on our own, then, you know, we would have been able to even 10 years ago. 15 years ago, Um, you know, you're still at a certain point gonna kind of run into that roadblock or or you're going to, whether it's sort of management of time and like, you know, trying to find publicity for your band or your act is taking up more time than you want to spend on it and again going back to opportunity costs or whether it's you've just reached that ceiling where, like, are there gatekeepers?

And I just I can't access them in the ways that I need. to the second you want to start seeing yourself on the cover of whatever magazine that you know you or your mom might see on the check out aisle of the grocery store, you know, Rolling Stone all press. You know, those sorts of things that tons of stuff online as well. Uh, you know, sites and magazines that the person on the street which recognize or know a lot about. In short, I guess what I'm trying to say is, the only time you're going to need a publicist is if you can't handle either the inbound like the media requests, which that would be an exciting problem toe have, or the outbound, which is if you have a vision and you're just you're not sure that you're as well equipped as you could be. Teoh.

You know, get there and at the end of the day to, um time suck has such, like a negative connotation to it, but it is labor intensive. And, um, having another person on your team would be helpful. So it's either like a time issue or an accessibility issue. Um, either one of those things would be a good reason to explore that idea. But at the end of the day, understanding that you know your eyes, individuals can still dio, you know, quite a bit on our own, much more than you know, we used to be able to 10 or 15 years ago.

Eso as with all things, it depends on your situation. But, um, that's one of those ones where, until you need it, you really don't. Yeah. And like I said at the start of this section, I see so many bands hire a publicist thinking that that's going to solve all of their issues. But it just doesn't. And it's a waste of money. And publicists frequently do take a flat fee because it's like, what are they supposed to take a percentage off? But it wouldn't make sense for that.

So they charge a flat fee and some publicists will be honest and say you're not at a place where it would make sense for me to work with you, while others will take on bands that really don't need a publicist and not really do anything with it because they can't do anything with it s So I think there's also publicists do have responsibility to know when they should say no to taking on a client. And at that point, it's kind of the publicist reputation on, you know, um, on the chopping block to like, you're kind of ah uniquely in it together.

Um, when you're thinking about that relationships because it's, you know, they're gonna have their name on it. But I think it's too like you're going to kind of what it comes down to is like you need a have something to publicize first to, and I think a lot of people, uh, don't or, um, that's a really exciting word, to like, throw around. But you really need to understand why you need that person. Or more specifically, why not? Totally More importantly, I would argue there are far more bands who don't need publicists than dio.

And in case you the listener haven't noticed. We're kind of going down this list, starting with things that everyone needs and going to things that you only need if you're getting there with your success. And one last thing I would say on the note of publicity is you can check out. Submit hub dot com to send your music to, bloggers, Spotify playlist, er's and YouTube channels to get your music out there, and it's incredibly cheap. It's just that you pay for credits and stuff. That's a really good way to reach those people, those gatekeepers for, you know, smaller independent outlets.

But get your music out there and have it heard, and you couldn't even get a confirmation or feedback. If you want that, they've listened to it and they tell you why they don't want to share it. What they didn't like, which could be tough to hear but might help you with your future releases On that note of the publicist and gate keeping, we're going to gate keep this episode on, say, this is the end. We have one more. It's a big one, but it's only one, and it's gonna be a small one.

But it's there obviously, so many other positions available to become occupied on tour or in a recording studio or in a graphic design studio or whatever. But I think we're going to kind of sum it up with this last one and just kind of call it miscellaneous to our staff. If you were in a band and you were all super busy when you're out there doing everything else that you had going on, what's the first person non band member, non friend? Manager? Not, you know, like somebody who you're actually going to take on if you're in a position to hire somebody?

Well, I think nobody is going to guess this if they're listening. And I think your answer would be nobody, which I probably should be the answer for a really long time for everything. I I agree with that, but when you are in a position to hire someone, I think people will not agree with me on this. They will not guess this. In fact, I see most bands doubling up this position, which I'm strongly against, and that is your driver. If you are a busy band, the best thing you can dio for Anybody who has long overnight drives on tour is hire a driver and get them day rooms so they can sleep.

You're in the band. You shouldn't be driving. You're exhausted, especially if you're doing night drives. You're exhausted. You don't want them dr. Overnight to get to the next city. That's just awful. Ah, lot of bands. The first personal higher is a merge personal photographer, something like that. Or they'll have a driver who also does merch, which I've been there. I hated it because I did not feel well rested. I did not feel safe driving on, and we were doing day drives, which was nice, but it would be like load out of the venue at midnight, get up at six to start the eight hour drive, so we'd, you know, leave it 77 30.

A couple stops, three gas and lunch. Get to the venue at four. Load in and then repeat. And there was another driver on the tour, thankfully, but I still wasn't getting enough sleep. to drive five hours before the other driver took over, and I can speak from personal experience from a safety standpoint, having a driver who's well arrested is the most important thing I would dio. Yeah, it's nice to have emerged person or a photographer other person helping you out. But that doesn't matter if you're dead, it literally starts and ends with safety.

You know, everything that you're doing out there. I would agree with safety number one. I would almost argue that having a dedicated driver in addition to, uh, sort of, um, helping you and share that you know, you guys are safe in your travels that your group is safe. It sort of opens up another door, which is It sort of allows you to cover more distance if they're, you know, if your gigs are for their spread apart, Um, you know it the same ease or it might even make that easier.

Um, And at the end of the day, it's gonna let you think or work or play, or whatever it is that you feel like you need to dio more because you're not gonna be driving. Yeah, I think it's kind of just a no brainer safety. Who's gonna let you get more work done? Quality of your life is a big one. Make sure that you don't have somebody who's stoked on of whatever paychecks they're getting to drive, but also wants to hang out the band all day. But if you get that person who's you know in it, it's it's they're interested in, and that being, you know, a job that they have that will increase your quality of life because you're not like you said taken off like, you know, letting out of the venue 12 or 1 a.m.

and then driving that's were not enough where we do that, we because it's less people on the road and whatever but like that would increase our quality of life tenfold. If, you know, we just didn't have to worry about it. You get more sleep, he gets stuff done. Yeah, and it's really if that person is well rested, you're gonna be so much safer. Obviously, they have to be a good driver, too. But it really is a huge, huge help and really, I also say that they should not be doubled up anything there.

Onley duties should be getting you safely from point A to point B, and I mean, I would include vehicle maintenance and cleaning in that give you know 15, 20 minutes every day. to, Check the oil. Check the tire pressure. Clean out the inside of the van if it's messy, but that's all part of getting you safely from point A to point B. Then moving on the next person you hire should be somebody who earns you money. Who'd have thunk that a band should earn money? Uh, this is something that you, Erin, have a lot of experience with, but it's Sally merch.

Yeah, I think it's a difference between hiring folks who will help you in the long run versus this is somebody who will literally help make you money in the short term, uh, immediately. And it's a it's a merch seller. It does two things. One. You have somebody who's dedicated his job. It is to sit or hopefully stand, uh, at that table and interact with people all night. Uh, you know, maybe they were able to dio accountant and account out and kind of help with some of the you know, the stuff that's gonna, you know, help you the day after when they're not there with you anymore.

Um, you know, or you know, after the tour's over whatever. Um, you know, you can probably task that person with is much or as little of this is you want, but just like the basic point of like having somebody standing there to interact with people all night because even if you're you totally kill, kill it when you're doing it. Um, like, if you're in the band, there's at least 30 minutes where there's not gonna be somebody there, Um, so kind of, you know, it helps to have that person there, And it kind of also helps to have you not there.

And if it frees you up from having to worry about it, it's fun. You could, like, walk around. You could check in with the person still work together and make sure if they're tied to the table, You want to make sure that they're like fed and have you know, a bottle of water or something caffeinated or something. But, you know, it's all about working together. And that could if and when you reach that point, it could be super useful. And for, you know, folks who are still kind of working their way up the letter as I am, um, maybe it's for like, um or important, you know, super awesome hometown gig.

Or, you know, one of the gigs that will be bigger than the others. Like on the road. It could be a one off. It doesn't have to be everything you dio but, you know, if and when it would make sense super helpful. Going off of what you said about making sure that somebody is there, I fully agree. And when I did, merchant was always so nice when the band manager would essentially, after I finished setting up and load in would come over and say, Okay. Hey, you need food and just be like, Yeah, sure, I'll be back.

And I have 2030 minutes to go out, get food. And then I'd come back and you know, doors would be opening, but everyone would be running up front. So it wasn't, you know, a key selling time. Really, at least for this tour. It's like a kind of snack on what I'm eating. And then if somebody came up, talk to them and interact and, you know, be that friendly face toe, sell them something. But that is one very important thing. Is taking care of the people on your tour making sure they have time to take care of the necessities totally.

And that ties into. Should we have merch the show or not like for some of the more d I Y spots, you know? And that's not even, like just basements. That's the brewery shows or, you know, nonstandard event space shows. I hate to say it, but like it totally pops into people's head well, and I've seen it where, you know, people have chosen not to bring out their merchant set it up because they feel weird. It's a small space or, you know, they just don't think it's gonna be worth it.

I've totally made 100 bucks where I did, you know, just because it's like, Let's see what happens, You know, you never know. It's not gonna hurt and having somebody who's like Job it is to do that. It solves the whole thing. Agreed, and that's about it. There are so many other people you can hire, especially on tour. There's front of house background checks, lighting the next person, I would say after a merge person would be in front of house, but Onley once your merch sales, cover your expenses and then some.

Because that way, ideally, your merch sales and in combination with any payment you're getting from playing the show would cover all your expenses to get to the next city and any staff that you're hiring. And then you should still be breaking even or, ideally, taking a payout. But that's not always possible for a d. I band. As you're growing your brand and your business, it's an investment, and you're going to take a loss for most likely a t least the first two or three years before things really pick up for you.

I don't mean two or three years from the start of the band. I mean two or three years of consistently touring and building up your fan base in other areas. Essentially, anyone can run a d. I tour by themselves, and that's what we want to help you dio to grow your knowledge and make it so you can run that tour. But once you're playing two or 300 cap rooms consistently, that's the point where if you're not comfortable doing it yourself, you should hire someone else to do it on the road.

And for all the not touring stuff, we've already covered those as well, kind of who should have it when you should implement that person's services. But it really all depends. This is just an overview of why you should outsource things when you should do it and what benefit you can get from that. And remember, it all comes down to opportunity cost. If you're in a band and you need sleep to perform, you don't want to spend eight hours driving. You want to drive so you can perform your best.

That's opportunity cost. That really is. Once again, you've made it through another episode of the podcast and thank you so so much for listening. It really means a lot to us that you take the time to sit down and improve your band. We want to hear how you have started improving your band. So please either go over to our Facebook group, which you confined by going over to band hive dot rocks slash group or email me at James at Band hive dot Rocks and let me know personally what you are doing to take steps to improve your band.

Thank you again for listening. I hope you have an awesome week. We'll be back next Tuesday at 6 a.m. Eastern. As always, keep rocking.