[00:00:00] James: Welcome to episode 189 of the Bandhive Podcast. It is time for another episode of the Bandhive Podcast. My name is James Cross and I help independent artists tour smart. This week on the show I have a very special guest, Brendan Frey of the band hostile.

[00:00:14] James: Hooray. How's it going today, Brendan?

[00:00:15] Brendan: Going. Well, thanks for having me on.

[00:00:17] James: Glad to hear that. Super stoked you're here. we're here to talk about the waterfall method and how artists can use that to promote their music because it's becoming more and more common, but a lot of artists still don't quite seem to grasp it. So I wanna dig in on this, but before we do that, This episode we're recording in June, but it comes out July 11th. So if you have not yet done so, head on down to your local 7-Eleven. They're not paying for this.

[00:00:41] James: This is just me saying go to 7-Eleven and get your free Slurpee. That said, Brendan, can you tell us a little bit about the background of uh, hostel Ray please?

[00:00:49] Brendan: Yeah. So most of us have been in local bands and regional bands for several years. all kind of got together in, 2017 to start a new project. Most [00:01:00] of us had already played in bands together at one point or another. most of us had been in another band That had, you know, found some moderate success in the, Christian mental core scene.

[00:01:08] Brendan: But never really took off too much. after kind of just changing direction stylistically and honestly just overall beliefs and values, kind of decided to reassess and start new project with, most of the lineup. Had a few changeovers at some points, but, put our first album out in 2018, and have just been.

[00:01:26] Brendan: Put out new stuff ever since.

[00:01:28] James: Nice. Yeah. So that was uh, self-titled record. You've dropped several singles since then, and just a couple months ago you dropped a new EP called Trauma so that's the one we're gonna talk about primarily today because that's where you've been using the waterfall method. But before we jump into that, also, I want to talk about something you said before we hit record, which was that you gained more traction online after the pandemic hit.

[00:01:49] James: And you even had two singles that were recorded entirely remotely during the pandemic, that's kind of what everyone did, but at the same time, most people didn't do it at the quality level that you achieved, which I think is really [00:02:00] impressive. So let's dig in on that. How did you harness that traction? Like, people don't just show up outta nowhere in the music world. You have to do something to get there. So what do you attribute that to? What do you think it was that you did that brought those people in and you got that attention from?

[00:02:16] Brendan: I think it was a, a combination of things really. There's a lot of things that go into. Getting your name out there that isn't quite as exciting as, you know, going out and, touring and being on the road and everything. would say a lot of times new artists especially kind of get really distracted by, I need to get out there, I need to play all these shows.

[00:02:35] Brendan: I need to constantly, you know, just be grinding on the road to actually make any kind of name for yourself and music. But I kind of think of it as like the old MySpace days mentality, right? Because back when MySpace was a big thing, right? that was the way to get your name out there and, there was a surplus of people that would come to shows even for the smallest band no one ever heard of.

[00:02:55] Brendan: Right. Nowadays, you know, I, I just feel like people don't have the same time, the same [00:03:00] money, the same resources to get out there and just check out. Local shows or smaller regional shows, or even just, you know, upcoming touring bands. they're a little bit more selective about what they put their time into.

[00:03:10] Brendan: I don't think they're nearly as selective when it comes to what they check out on the internet though. If you can grab someone's attention in that first five, 10 seconds of exposure and, you know, they, they start digging into it, then I, I think that's where you can actually. Start to grow. if you're familiar with Bill Murray, Johnny Frank, who used to be an attack attack, you know, he did a video that kind of stuck with me a while back where he said, Hey, if you're a new artist, don't focus on touring.

[00:03:34] Brendan: Don't focus on like this, like just build your brand online and see if there's anyone out there to actually, take you up on what you're putting out. And that mentality just kind of stuck with us. And you know, we kind of got forced into adopting that mentality over Covid, right?

[00:03:47] Brendan: Because there weren't local shows, there weren't big shows, there weren't any shows happening. You stuck inside and kind of had to rethink how are we getting our music out there? Cause the whole industry came to a halt in that sense. And surprisingly, you [00:04:00] know, there was plenty of people online Waiting to be entertained. Right. Cuz we're stuck in their houses. Um, So, right. Exactly. So honestly, it was just a combination of, trying to find the right placements out there, you know, between marketing via ads, you know, Instagram and things like that. Don't ever underestimate how effective putting an ad on someone's Instagram story can actually be.

[00:04:23] Brendan: In interacting with, independent playlist curators. And I'm not talking about people that are asking for X amount of money to put you on a playlist. I'm talking about people that actually care, you know, the, 300 follower playlist or something like that, because they add up. the more people you get in your music in front of, the better. So it's really just like a snowball effect, right? Of, of who can I get this out to? Who can I, contact and, and get their attention to actually listen to this?

[00:04:48] Brendan: And it will add up over time if you're persistent enough.

[00:04:51] James: Yeah, absolutely. And I want to make very clear that there's also a very good reason to avoid those paid playlists, which is that Spotify, if they find out, they will [00:05:00] remove your music. So for anyone listening, if you didn't know that, do not ever pay for playlist placements on Spotify.

[00:05:07] Brendan: Spotify will potentially remove your music, but it also can just trash your algorithm. I've seen so many artists. That you'll go into, their fans may also like section on Spotify, and if that is completely missing, which some artists have that completely missing, they're probably botting their, plays.

[00:05:24] Brendan: And not good. it reduces the, the availability for exposure on things like, release radar, discover weekly, things like that. Because I mean, the algorithm does play into, finding that passive listeners right. That that can help kind of really expose you to new people.

[00:05:39] Brendan: So don't pay for things like that.

[00:05:41] James: Yeah. Yeah, it's just not a good idea and. You have a great example of how you can make things work without paying for playlist placement. obviously what you did worked for you between the social media ads, the organic playlist promotions. did you use like submithub or Groover or anything like that,

[00:05:59] Brendan: [00:06:00] Submithub daily playlist, things like that. You know, they, a lot of people kind of discount how effective they can be, cuz in a vacuum they're not super effective, right? Getting one or two placements on there isn't really going to do a lot. And also getting placements on playlists that don't make sense, So like, if you're just sending your stuff out to, you know, indie alt rock playlist at, you know, whatever playlist curators List of playlists it probably won't be any good for you if it doesn't actually fit the genre or the audience you're trying to find. So like smart submissions on submithub and daily playlists and things like that are great for growth.

[00:06:33] Brendan: I think, you know, cuz it, it not only does. It get you, you know, new people that actually listen to you, but it also kind of helps the association for the algorithm as well. So definitely use those. Definitely also, you know, find people that just have their Instagram handle or Gmail account listed in their Spotify playlist, you know, if they try to charge me or something like that, I'm like, no, you're probably not legitimate.

[00:06:55] Brendan: I'm gonna back off of this. But you'd be surprised how many people are actually like, Hey, I really like this [00:07:00] song. I'm gonna add this to my playlist and anyone that listens to it, you know, hopefully they discover you as well. You really don't know until you ask. Right? So that's, it's persistence and dealing with a lot of people not responding to you.

[00:07:11] Brendan: But also for every couple that actually do get back to you, you might actually gain some traction.

[00:07:16] James: Yeah, definitely. And it's also, you know, a numbers game. the more people you reach out to, the more people you're gonna reach.

[00:07:22] James: Maybe you reached out to a hundred people, you have five or 10 new people, that's great. You reach out to a thousand and you can split this with your band mates.

[00:07:28] James: You each take 200 guess what? Now you have 50 to a hundred new people who are into your music.

[00:07:32] Brendan: Well, you know, it, it's funny because I feel like a lot of times when we're talking about the internet, it's like the bar moves so substantially for like what is considered actual value, right? Because like if you had a hundred people show up to a show, And actually pay attention and listen to your music.

[00:07:48] Brendan: you'd probably be stoked on that, right? So why is it any less impactful when a hundred people willingly actually check out your stuff? Now I'm talking real people, not fluff numbers that someone might have, fabricated. if you have a hundred plus [00:08:00] people that are actively listening your music online, that's a hundred real people behind that.

[00:08:04] Brendan: I think that a lot of people seem to forget that when you see. Artist numbers that are, that are huge and you start doing the comparison, it's like, no, grateful that anyone's actually checking it out and, you know, hopefully you can keep building that, fan base. It's just stay persistent.

[00:08:17] James: Yeah, absolutely. And same thing like if you have people uh, posting photos of your merch. This happened to us a couple weeks ago. A friend of mine posted a picture wearing our shirt. My guitarist repost. I'm like that. Yes, do that. maybe next time drop in a link to the merch store. But yes, anytime we get anything like that, repost it, even if it's just one person, because one, that's gonna make them feel good about their decision to post them wearing the shirt.

[00:08:42] James: But two, it's gonna remind people that we have merch and you know, every band is desperate for social media content. if somebody tags you that's free content, just repost it. if it's something bad, don't share it.

[00:08:52] James: You know, if they have a Confederate flag in the background or something, like, don't share that. You don't wanna put that out there and have that associated with you or your music,

[00:08:59] Brendan: right. [00:09:00] You don't, you definitely don't wanna make those negative associations by any

[00:09:02] Brendan: means.

[00:09:03] James: Oh. Anyway. Yeah. So we're here to talk about the waterfall method and I'm not an expert on this either, but from my understanding, it's get released single. Then a month or two later you release another single, and the first single is the second track on that release. And then you do that until you have like three or four songs.

[00:09:20] James: That is like the absolute dumbed down version of it. Can you take us onto a deeper dive into that journey? Tell us about the specific way you handle it for the trauma EP and what inspired you to go this route for this ep.

[00:09:33] Brendan: So know that one of the biggest ways that we got more attention on our music was by keeping people's attention spans by, you know, actually releasing content, over a period of time instead of all at once. And in 2018, when we dropped our, first full album, we had, you know, 10 songs on there. And for the most part, I'm still pretty proud of what we put on there, but it was just some tracks just got Way more listeners and kept way more listeners over [00:10:00] time. And I realize it's because we didn't really get people exposed to all the tracks that were on the album, and it felt like this investment we made financially into recording the marketing, the music videos, all those things that went into, really setting that up was kind of like a lost investment to some extent.

[00:10:17] Brendan: You know, I'm, I'm still happy that those things are out there, but it just didn't. Get the full return on investment that we were looking for. And so then we started playing around with the single market and noticed that every time we released a single, just by and far, even if the songs were not as good as a song we might have put on the album, you know, that's all subjective, but even if it wasn't necessarily by our standards as good, it still got more plays not only at the time of release, but after the fact as well.

[00:10:44] Brendan: And so thinking about that in the context of an ep, were like, well, Why not just apply this same method? Because I feel like a lot of times when people were discovering music, they don't have that attention span, right. To go through five albums. I know if I'm, you know, looking for new music on a given Friday [00:11:00] or something like that, I'm gonna check out like Release Radar or Discover Weekly or something, that Spotify's put together for me, right.

[00:11:06] Brendan: To see what is new out there. Do I like this song? And, and most people, I feel like the casual listener doesn't really dig into albums like they used to. Right. So with that in mind, we were able to kind of transition and think, okay. Well, why not take all these songs that are of a similar theme, a similar sound, similar mix, and master and just repackage them and kind of almost double dip on the exposure aspect there, right?

[00:11:30] Brendan: Because when you put out new music, on Spotify or Apple Music or anything, you know, people that are already following you are gonna get that notification right, to saying, Hey, this artist put out new music. So if you can continuously do that and keep bringing them back, whether or not you package that every single time a new song comes out and add them together or do it all as one big release, kind of like we did, it brought additional listeners back that may have just casually checked this out at that time, and then they remember that and say, Hey, I liked this when this came out.

[00:11:59] Brendan: Why don't I add this to my [00:12:00] playlist? Why don't I add this to my personal library, et cetera. So really it's just kind of like that, consistent exposure to actually get a long-term fan. for us with the trauma ep, we actually kind of released parts of it over a course of a whole year.

[00:12:14] Brendan: It wasn't necessarily originally intended to be that long of a duration, but just production delays and everything kind of happened that. We're a little out of our control, but at the end of the day, it, it still worked out. We ended up doubling down on a little bit of a PR campaign at the end. partnering with Tyler that, you know, kind of got us together to begin with here.

[00:12:33] Brendan: was able to help us, you know, that to a lot of different publications to kind of look at it in the full picture of all these songs together. Even though some of these songs had already been out for almost a full year.

[00:12:43] James: I think that's a really good note is that you're still talking about the songs from a year ago. You're not just focusing on the latest song. a lot of artists, they drop the song and that's the last you ever hear of it. It's like, Hey, we have a new song, silence, crickets, nothing. so the Waterfall [00:13:00] method, you know, of course it allows you to refresh people's memories of that song by having as the second song, behind the next single or whatever. But also just. You're making the point of, you still talk about it. Tyler has been talking about the package as a whole rather than, Hey, this is the new single.

[00:13:14] James: It's on the EP coming out, blah, blah, blah. It's like, Hey, this is the new single. We also have these other songs. I think that's really important too, is it's not just you put it out there and forget it exists.

[00:13:22] Brendan: Right. I'm seeing a lot of, pop artists, a lot of hip hop artists doing this exact same thing where they'll take these songs and you don't see this as much in the rap community, which I think is kind of a a weird cultural thing with rock music where it's like, we are scared to do self-promotion. I don't know why. I don't know where that comes from in our culture that it's, I don't know if it's not. DIY enough to self promote, which sounds silly, right? But it's almost like it's uncool to do that. It's like, no, you should be hyping your stuff out.

[00:13:48] Brendan: And then there's, inappropriate ways, inappropriate ways to do that. Don't be that guy that's just in every random person's dms after, you know, Adam 'em on Facebook or Instagram. Don't, don't be that guy. You know, there's, but there are people that are [00:14:00] genuinely looking for new music, right?

[00:14:01] Brendan: There are people that are seeking, and that's the audience you need to look for. it might be an old song to you, but. If you're still an upcoming artist that not many people know of, it's gonna be a new song to somebody. there's nothing wrong with, keeping the hype and promotion around something that, just because they, it didn't pick up traction immediately doesn't mean that it's not gonna pick up traction two months, three months, four months, a whole year after the fact.

[00:14:25] Brendan: Especially now that we have things like, TikTok for example. You know, where the most crazy trend can blow up a song that might be. A year, two years. hell, 10 years old. Even, you know, you, you see all kinds of crazy stuff happening. So, if you have something that you've put time and energy into, stand by it and don't be afraid to, you know, double down on, on promoting it to, to a new audience.

[00:14:47] Brendan: Cuz you never know who's listening and who might actually dig what you're doing.

[00:14:52] James: Absolutely agreed, and I think probably some of that difference might come down to mental health. And be the first to say, I don't know how mental [00:15:00] health in the hip hop community is, but in the rock scene there's a lot of people who have. Anxiety or just incredibly shy. And I think that's probably part of it.

[00:15:09] James: I can't say for sure, but just from knowing the people that I know in the music scene, I'm just like, they're afraid to post because it's like, Hey, what if this stranger doesn't like my music? with the small handful of rappers I've worked with over the years, it's kind of like they just don't care.

[00:15:24] James: They just do it. anything, their ego is too big and they're just like, I'm the best. I'm like, dude, you're playing to five people. do your set but don't have this huge ego. You know, like I definitely see that difference. And maybe that's tying into the promotional efforts as well.

[00:15:37] James: Like they're not afraid of what people think. They just go do it.

[00:15:40] Brendan: I think there's definitely a way to find balance, right? I, think you definitely need to be able to find a place where you're confident in your music and everything, but at the same time, you don't wanna come off as, you know. Arrogant or anything about, about your relevance or, or anything, you know, cuz there's a certain level of humility that I think is still, important to keep intact.

[00:15:57] Brendan: But far as the mental health aspect goes, like [00:16:00] I, I totally can relate to that cuz there are days, there are times there are weeks where I just don't feel it, you know, you start overthinking everything. You start wondering like, yeah, does anyone actually care about this? It's like, yeah, I can, I can check and see.

[00:16:13] Brendan: How many people are actually giving us the time of day? How many active listeners are actually like checking out what we're doing, but there's still this, self comparison aspect, right? That's like, well, I'm not doing enough, or I could be doing more and, maybe I should be doing this differently, or, you know, then you start really getting to the spiral of like, well, the imposter syndrome, the, you know, the anxiety about actually getting people to listen to what you're doing or.

[00:16:39] Brendan: Whether or not it even matters, whew. Yeah. It's a whole bag that you have to kind of un and not just for, you know, music promotion. That's just life in general. Right. So it's just another area that it affects. definitely no stranger to that here. So it's one of those, easier said than done things for sure.

[00:16:55] James: Yeah. I, I think that's one of the keys is that if people don't recognize. The [00:17:00] struggle that they're having, you were exactly saying. Imposter syndrome, that's a huge one. And honestly, if there's somebody who doesn't face imposter syndrome, please tell me how. Like, but I think recognizing that is the first thing, cuz once you know, then you can say when it happens, oh, that's this thing. You know what, I'm just gonna stand up and power on this is gonna suck, but I'm gonna do it.

[00:17:20] Brendan: Yeah, for sure.

[00:17:21] James: see people who are posting all the time and at the larger levels, maybe they have a social media person bugging them, like in the dms on Facebook or Slack or whatever, being like, yo, post this, post this.

[00:17:32] James: No, I said, post this, just do it. Like post it. It's good. We don't all have that. But what we do have at least in the rock world, typically is band mates. So, maybe if you need somebody to remind you and be like, Hey, We're all gonna make a post today. Let, go do this, last one to post has to buy lunch at the next practice.

[00:17:50] Brendan: trying to stay consistent on social media and the pressure that puts on artists is, is something that truly kind of sucks. It's one of those things where [00:18:00] it's, We have the accessibility that we've never had before, right? Where we can directly interact with potential fans or existing fans.

[00:18:07] Brendan: But then there's that, constant pressure of having a certain persona or pumping out enough content that truly is a real drag, right? Especially when you're getting into this predominantly to share your art, And it's like, well, it starts to overshadow, what you're, trying to do, with music, it starts becoming, it's like, are you a content creator first or a musician first, or an artist first? And I don't even know if I've quite figured that out honestly. I, I definitely try to lean more towards the artist's side because, I don't have the mental stamina to be a uh, you know, a one man show of content creation by any means.

[00:18:40] Brendan: Just not in my personality. And hopefully there are, people out there that still appreciate what we do without having to constantly be posting on TikTok or Instagram or whatever platform you prefer. So it's a struggle and if I ever figure it out, I'll be sure to let you guys know.

[00:18:56] James: Please do well. And so on that note, let's talk a little bit about the [00:19:00] social media promotion that Hostel Array does. Let's start with the basics. How do you figure out what you're gonna post? When, do you make a schedule first and then fill it with content? Or do you make content first and then just post it when you can?

[00:19:11] Brendan: I have gone back and forth and tried multiple methods for this, and, and honestly, I, I, don't think anyone can truly say there is. One exact format that's gonna work for everyone, you need to kind of figure out what your brand is, what your user, listener or, fan base is gonna be receptive to, I've done the, create. 20 some assets and then schedule promotions and everything, or schedule to post. That's one thing that I've definitely done before. I've also done the, okay, I'm gonna do this at random. As you know, the content idea comes in. I would definitely say the one I feel most comfortable with is, having the assets ready and kind of a, rough plan of this is when I'm going to schedule this post, this is when I'm gonna put this out there.

[00:19:52] Brendan: Just because I know for me who likes to, Have a plan and just work it all out. it works better for me, but not everyone's like that, right? Some people just like doing [00:20:00] things, at random as they think of the ideas, as they think of the concepts. And, and maybe it is a little bit more organic, but not everyone's the same.

[00:20:06] Brendan: As far as Just purely promotional aspects, though we've actually kind of leaned in a little bit to automation aspects as well as far as like promoted ads. as a band we kind of set aside, you know, a little bit of money every month and just continuously run Instagram ads using the similar asset that we've had for, you a couple months or so.

[00:20:25] Brendan: usually taking video clips that we've made or something like that, and kind of. Editing it down to like a short 15 minute, or, sorry, 15 second, God, 15 minute ad would be terrible. Um, 15 second ad

[00:20:36] James: nightmares.

[00:20:37] Brendan: and you can't skip it. No. Um, no, we, we'll edit it down to like a 15 second ad, you know, and it usually redirects people to either, you know, or Spotify or Apple Music or, or whatever were trying to promote at that time.

[00:20:49] Brendan: And you'd be surprised how much passive growth that can do for you. We just let it run for like five bucks a day, and sure we could have a larger budget if we [00:21:00] had, more exp expendable income to throw at it. But even $5 a day really does continue to bring new people in that are, mindlessly scrolling through Instagram one night, or going through Instagram stories and say, Oh, hey, that sounds kind of cool.

[00:21:13] Brendan: What's this? Lemme check this out. And you just never know it might land in front of. So I definitely would encourage finding automation tools, like we use, a platform called Tone Dead. That makes it really, really easy. there are also people out there that can do ad consulting if you're not super familiar with.

[00:21:28] Brendan: Things like the Facebook or Instagram ad managers. I definitely recommend not just running like a boosted post because those can be, very lacking in the return. But yeah, I think tools like Tone Den are similar. Tools are great for trying to find an audience, you know, be self-aware of you think, music's gonna land well with Target that and, let that automation kind of do some of the heavy lifting for you.

[00:21:51] James: Yeah, I think that's great advice. And especially the thing about boosting I love calling people out for that. I'm just like, you're gonna get so much better return on ad spend by [00:22:00] doing literally anything else

[00:22:01] James: But yeah. So when you're talking about Tone Den and the automation I've used Meta Ads directly. Does Tone Den interface with that so you can set the ads up in Tone Den or

[00:22:12] Brendan: actually does. So ba it it basically sets it up as a more user friendly GUI on top of Facebook ad manager's platform. Right. the Facebook ad managers platform is, not. User-friendly. It is very much set up for actual corporations that have, a large marketing spend that can, you know, actually do it on their own.

[00:22:35] Brendan: Right? Not, five dues in a band that are trying to figure out how they're gonna afford Taco Bell at the end of the run, right? That's not, that's not who this was designed for. Tone down, on the other hand, is actually designed with user-friendly aspects in mind. Especially some of the things they have, uh, specific playbooks, things for like YouTube growth, things for Spotify growth, all kinds of little things like that, that are, curated for artists of different levels, And you can [00:23:00] really start running something like that with something as easy as $5 a day, like I said. If you just wanna kind of test it out and see how it works. If you're expecting to have a, a, blowup overnight or something like that, using it for like a week or so, that's not really the vibe that you're gonna get from it.

[00:23:15] Brendan: You know? more so a slow growth, kind of thing. I know that from the time we started running ads and really, leveraging capacity just on Spotify alone, we went from probably about 500. Followers to over 3000 followers in about, you know, a year or so. Which is, you know, still not huge follower base.

[00:23:34] Brendan: But that's significant growth nonetheless, And those are people that you, get to retain as you start releasing new music. Things like release radar, things like Discover Weekly, all those kind of things factor into that Spotify algorithm. So the higher your follower count, the better.

[00:23:47] James: Definitely, with Spotify. It's not like other social media platforms where your followers might not even see your stuff. Spotify, because of a release radar, you're probably gonna be on there if you put something out and they follow you. gonna do their [00:24:00] best to put you in there.

[00:24:00] James: Or even if not that, like you'll get a notification. I get notifications on my phone saying like, Hey, this person released a new album or a new song today. It's like, okay, cool. I'll go check it out. That's much more reliable in my experience than, Hey, we made 20 posts on Instagram and somebody saw two of them.

[00:24:15] Brendan: exactly. you gotta kind of think of it from the, user mentality, right? So like, how is that person gonna interact with this platform? And you see something? a post that someone made on Instagram that says, Hey, there's a link in our bio. Everyone does it, right?

[00:24:29] Brendan: Everyone has to do that to some extent. Tina really, really pull into people that are truly trying to seek out your stuff. But most people, you know, if you, if you have a hundred people viewed at how many people realistically are actually gonna click that link, go through multiple hops until they get to your streaming platform or whatever, Directing people directly to what you're trying to get them to, whether it be Spotify, YouTube, apple music, wherever you wanna see growth so important because if you get someone doing more than two clicks, I'd be surprised.

[00:24:59] Brendan: Most people don't [00:25:00] want to do more than that. They want to do one click and be done with it. I know I'm not too far off of that. If you could make me search for something and I don't know who you are or why I'm doing it, I'm probably not gonna do it.

[00:25:09] James: Yep.

[00:25:10] Brendan: So you really kinda have to get into the, the psychology aspect of like, well, what is gonna make this person click this?

[00:25:16] Brendan: What is make gonna make this person actually pay attention and, well give a shit about what we're doing

[00:25:20] James: Yeah. It has to be as easy as humanly possible.

[00:25:23] James: the thing that always gets me to be honest is Spotify presa campaigns on Instagram, you click it and then you have to sign in on the Instagram browser. It's like, I'm not doing that. I've signed in a billion times, and I'm just like, I'm not doing it. If you can't get that link right, where it's like, Hey, open this in Safari, here's the link to do that now click this, great. Then I'll, I'll do it. But if you can't get that right, I'm not doing it.

[00:25:43] Brendan: right. I'm still not convinced that presa campaigns really do anything. I think it's one of those things that the idea sounds great. You know, because you, you get someone that's like pres saving and you know, it's gonna automatically add it their library and everything.

[00:25:58] Brendan: It's a good idea in [00:26:00] theory, but I have not seen anyone that has come by and said, you know what, pres saving really just put our release over the top. No, it's, it's usually after it's already out and people are checking it out, that's when it really matters, in my opinion.

[00:26:12] James: Right. When people can hear it and decide if they actually like it or not.

[00:26:15] Brendan: Exactly.

[00:26:15] James: Yeah. So we've discussed social media. We've discussed ads, which are, part of social media, but it's different from organic. Does hostel array use an email list as well?

[00:26:25] Brendan: That is one thing that we have not leveraged nearly as much as I think we should. we've tried to, I implement that before in the past. I didn't quite where I want it to be. And I've gone back and forth on the importance of it so many times. I know so many people. Say email list are so important and I don't disagree with 'em.

[00:26:44] Brendan: It's just trying to actually stay consistent on capturing that data is definitely a challenge within itself. I know there's a bunch of automated platforms out there, and it's on my list of things I, I want to still play around with and see how it goes.

[00:26:56] James: Yeah. Okay. because I'm a big fan of email [00:27:00] and it does take more work, but I find that even if you only have like 50 or a hundred people on there, those are 50 or a hundred people who are really invested versus, you know, you might have. Two, 3000 on social media and they're passive. They might not even see stuff email.

[00:27:14] James: They're gonna see it in their inbox. Whether they open it or not is a totally different story, but they're gonna see it.

[00:27:19] James: they might be one of those people with like 13,000 unread emails. I would be having a meltdown if that happened to me. I have like

[00:27:25] Brendan: noti notification anxiety. Yeah.

[00:27:27] James: Yeah, exactly. And the people who don't even turn off the notification badges, that's like, oh my god.

[00:27:32] Brendan: I got shamed by someone at a liquor store one day trying to use Apple Pay, because they saw my notifications. I hadn't checked, and I was like, I'm really just getting shamed by the girl at the liquor store right now for having notifications on my phone. I'm like, well, I'm gonna go back and clear all my notifications now.

[00:27:51] James: She's probably thinking of the person who like left her on red or something. I was like, oh, that kind of guy.

[00:27:56] Brendan: I, I was not expecting it, man. I was not expecting it.[00:28:00] [00:28:01] James: Oh, life lessons from the uh, clerk at the store.

[00:28:04] James: Oh. Anyway, moving on to another subject, it's clear that you're not afraid to invest in your music between the production and the ads. being in a band isn't cheap, but you're also still a DIY band. How do you kind of. Combine those aspects. Cause a lot of people would say, if you pay for anything, you're not diy.

[00:28:22] James: Which is, I think is ridiculous. you can be DIY and still have people who help you with things and you pay them. That's totally fine. You're still diy. Being DIY is more about Hey, we're doing this ourselves. We're not on a major label. don't have management That's how I view it.

[00:28:36] James: So how, how do you combine these things and kind of toe the line so people aren't yelling at you?

[00:28:41] Brendan: Well, honestly, at this point, I mean, you're never gonna make anyone a hundred percent happy, right? There's, there's so many weird and subjective opinions around how you should carry yourself as a artist and how you navigate the business aspect of it. I don't know anyone that has made it anywhere without [00:29:00] investing at least some time or money to, get, additional help on something.

[00:29:04] Brendan: To me, being DIY means, you know, you still have control and you still have ownership of what you're doing. Right. most of your favorite artists that are, you know, on a label or something like that, they probably don't own everything about their brand. If anything, and.

[00:29:18] Brendan: that point, they're kind of more of an employee to the label or the brand So I, I would say we are definitely still fully DIY despite the fact that we, outsource a lot of the stuff we do. It's like, where do you draw the line? Do you draw the line? You have to make all your videos on your own.

[00:29:33] Brendan: You have to self engineer everything. It's like, no, everyone is relying on someone to do something. Right. the place that I think that is important is, are you actualizing your creative vision? Are you actualizing the goals that you want to maintain? And are you doing it on your terms?

[00:29:52] Brendan: That's kind of what makes something truly DIY to me. And you know, if, if you don't wanna be a DIY artist or don't want to be involved in diy, I'm [00:30:00] not gonna shame anyone for that either. You know, everyone should have the right to do. What they want to do with their art or their careers or whatever that may be.

[00:30:07] Brendan: For us, you know, we're all people that have our own careers. You know, I work full-time as a uh, government IT worker, right? And a few of us are actually in tech, in the band, and some of us have photography gigs and, Some of us are just, office workers as well, we do what we do in life and take that and fund, our passion projects.

[00:30:31] Brendan: Cuz at the end of the day, you know, like, yeah, I would love to see, music actually pay the bills. Right? But the reality is that's a very small percentage of people that get to take their art and pay their bills with their art, everyone else outside of that doesn't get to do that. It's passion projects, at least until something might turn over. So I think there's just some reality that people need to, check when they're talking about, what is actually going into making this stuff happen.

[00:30:55] James: Yeah, I fully agree with that. I mean, I think it's the kind of thing where artists like[00:31:00] your band or probably my band, we're at a similar. outlook of, have to say DIY has decided it yourself. My drummer came up with that. people who would call us out or call you out are probably also the people who are like, making tapes in their basement.

[00:31:14] James: And like, the only thing that's DIY is like, you recorded this with one microphone in a basement. It's fully live. There's no edits. Like that's diy. It's like, no, that's, not what it means at all. so I love what you're saying about, hey, you're in control. I think that's a really good way to put it, because ultimately, like you're working with Tyler, but he works for you.

[00:31:31] James: he's gonna give you his advice, but you're still in charge.

[00:31:34] Brendan: it's a partnership at that point. Yeah.

[00:31:36] James: I think that's a, great way to look at it and yeah. Anybody you hire is a partner on that project. So before we wrap this up, I just wanna say Brendan, thank you so much for being here everywhere.

[00:31:47] James: Hostel Ray at hostel ray hostel ray.com. you did well with the branding aspect. You're the same thing everywhere.

[00:31:53] Brendan: had to make sure we had that before we picked the name, you know, had to make sure that no one else had it.

[00:31:57] James: Yep. Yeah, just imagine if you had to do like [00:32:00] hostile array official, that would be just, so long.

[00:32:03] Brendan: Yeah, wouldn't be a fan of that.

[00:32:04] James: I'm calling out my band mates who did Nerves official guys. Anyway anything else that we should know about hostile array before I let you go for the day?

[00:32:13] Brendan: Just make sure to follow us on things like Instagram and TikTok and, you know, I'd say Facebook, but I don't really know anyone that actually follow us music on Facebook half the time anymore. So Instagram is probably where we're most active and most responsive. So be sure to hit us up there and hopefully we'll keep working now on, uh, getting some more material out in the next year.

[00:32:32] James: Stellar. All right, Brendan, thank you so much. All those links will be in the show notes at Bandhive rocks slash 1 8 9. That's the number 189, as well as anything else we mentioned, brands, bands, have you. It'll be in there. Stuff like Tone Den. again, Brendan, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure talking with you, and I hope you have an amazing rest of your day.

[00:32:51] Brendan: Yeah. Thank you.