[00:00:00] James: Welcome to episode 187 of the Bandhive Podcast. It is time for another episode of the Bandhive Podcast. My name is James Cross and I help independent artists Tour smart.

[00:00:10] James: This week on the show I have a very special guest, Nick Mishko, a k a Mishko of 10 and 8 Management. How are you doing today, Mishko?

[00:00:18] Nick: I'm doing pretty good, James. Thanks for having me on. been seeing your TikTok a lot, so I've been excited to get on this one.

[00:00:24] James: Yeah. I'm glad to hear you're doing well and it's a pleasure to have you here. you mentioned TikTok already, like that's where we connected originally. I think you left a comment at some point saying, Hey, let's chat. And we, we talked about a month ago and said, Hey, this is a great chat. Let's do a podcast together.

[00:00:38] Nick: Here we are. Power of social media.

[00:00:40] James: Exactly. And, and you know, I would be a liar if I said I don't have a lot of connections in the music business because of social media and friends that I have because of social media, even here in my area. that's a whole nother rabbit hole.

[00:00:51] James: But a couple, little days ago you posted a video, or by the time this episode comes out, like a month and a half ago, highlighting three accounts, including [00:01:00] mine, Matt Bacon, and uh, I believe his venture music was the third. Matt Bacon. He and I have been friends for like three years now because he came on the podcast because I had seen Bacon's Bits on Instagram or TikTok or wherever years ago.

[00:01:14] James: And just a couple weeks ago, I actually, I crashed at his place in Brooklyn to go to a show in New York. so I'm saying this just to highlight the power of TikTok and social media, and you absolutely cannot underestimate as an artist. I know bands who, had they not used social media back in like 2010, they would not have had a music career.

[00:01:32] James: But now they do because they harnessed their following and built a community.

[00:01:36] James: kind of a preview of what we're gonna talk about

[00:01:38] Nick: I I'm excited about it. it's funny that you mentioned Matt Bacon. he's actually doing the streaming promotions for one of my clients named Autopilots. I met him through social media.

[00:01:47] James: Yeah, absolutely. That's the thing about social media, like it, leads to these connections and we're all spread out like the Northeast or Midwest. In your case you are in Ohio. Matt is in Brooklyn and Europe half the time too cuz he's a badass. And I'm up in Vermont and [00:02:00] also all over the place.

[00:02:01] James: But mainly Vermont. I don't travel as much as Matt. just shows the music industry is so tightly connected but spread out at the same time. I think it's amazing that this is all possible in part due to social media. So that's what we're gonna talk about today. But before we dive into that, can you give us a background about yourself?

[00:02:17] James: Like inspired you to get started in music? What is the stuff that keeps you going every day? Cuz you've been doing this for 15 years now. And last but not least, who is your favorite artist at the moment?

[00:02:28] Nick: Oh, you're gonna put me on the spot with I like Hard Rock, so my all time favorite band is Breaking Benjamin. I've loved them since college. bands now that I've been, I've been getting this uh, band called Nicotine Dolls. They've been popping up on my TikTok artist named Talk, t a l k.

[00:02:44] Nick: Been really getting into Jelly Roll. Who hasn't? Cause he's been everywhere. So I like everything, you know, everything from blue grass to heavy metal death, core hip hop, you name it. So I like it all.

[00:02:53] James: Nice. Very cool. and I think that's the thing too, like, first of all, breaking Benjamin, I'm not a huge [00:03:00] fan, but I do like what they do. I think the album after phobia, From like 2009. I used to spend that one a lot. it's super cool that they're back now too. Totally different lineup, aside from Ben, but still very cool.

[00:03:10] Nick: yeah, they've been around for a hot minute. Well, time does fly. That's what you're, me, you're mentioning like, my history um, been doing this 15 years.

[00:03:18] Nick: I graduated from Youngstown State University in 2008. I went for business uh, marketing and media communications. And 2007, 2008, knowing that I wanted to work in the music business about to graduate from college. And, there really was, no, not to sound old, but like you really couldn't go online and like look up.

[00:03:36] Nick: Music industry, jobs and whatnot. So I went to the library and I got all these music industry books on like how to get a career in the music business. And they all said an internship. So I went to, you can't see it, but over here I've got like a thousand CDs. I went through every CD and opened it up and I looked at the liner notes and I did email every label.

[00:03:54] Nick: I, I probably emailed 400 labels on getting an internship after college [00:04:00] cuz I was ready to move to like, Nashville, New York, la so anyways, I, I emailed like 400 labels got a couple callbacks. One was, for Universal Music. Wanted to um, do uh, college marketing for a phone that was gonna be a computer in your pocket.

[00:04:17] Nick: And they wouldn't tell me what it was called, but it came out to be the iPhone. This is again, 2007, 2008. But anyways Graduated college, got my first internship at Rockridge Music under Jason Spack, in the band's Sister Hazel. Psycho Stick was one of the first bands I ever did MySpace Marketing for way back in the day.

[00:04:37] Nick: I'm still friends with Jason Spack to this day. He runs, uh, noble Steed Records in Jsl Management. He's been a mentor for my entire career and he was one of the first people that ever gave me my shot at Rockridge Music. So after the internship I went on, and a lot of managers, they start as a promoter and a, I've never been in a band.

[00:04:57] Nick: I started from the corporate side of [00:05:00] things and after the internship and after graduating college, I went and I worked four and a half years at Apco Music and Records. And they're a legendary record label in New York City. They do the Rolling Stones, Bob Seager, the who, chubby Checker. The animals like, anyone in the publishing world, in royalties world knows of aro records like Alan Klein and the whole Klein family was always great to me.

[00:05:24] Nick: But he was one of the first managers of the Beatles in the Rolling Stones. So anyways, I worked there for four and a half years and I learned everything, you know, for everything you need to know about licensing, how to license a song, if there's a stone to turn over to make a penny. I learned how to do that.

[00:05:40] Nick: from there I just you know, I wanted to get back into working with artists and after doing that for four and a half years and at that time, been like in the business for five years and, so I started managing one artist as like a side project, and then one turned into two, and then it's like two turned into three.

[00:05:56] Nick: So like, I left my very nice corporate major [00:06:00] label job in New York City, moved back to Ohio and with from. A few clients in a laptop to now, this would be our 11th year in full-time working for myself. This is our second office. I got people that work for me down in Nashville, interns around the country.

[00:06:17] Nick: We're doing a thousand shows every 18 months before covid. Things are picked up now since Covid has, gone away for the most part. But it's been a lot of high highs and a lot of low lows. But, getting into management, like I said, I wanted to want to work back with artists.

[00:06:31] Nick: I wanted to, like, that's one reason why I got into the music business. Nothing against royalties or anything like that, but like, it's accounting. you can always have that as a career. It's your nine to five job Monday through Friday. it's basically, number crunching, but for royalties.

[00:06:45] Nick: Being able to use that for independent bands in auditing record labels. within the first three years I was auditing record labels, and they're like, who the hell is this kid from Cleveland? And then Word got around and it was like, oh shit. he's the royalties [00:07:00] guy. you know, like I had bands like, can you help me?

[00:07:02] Nick: Like, look at my, my statements and then I launched the sister company during Covid OCO publishing, and within the first six months I found $85,000 in missing royalties for clients. So, to be able to use my corporate background and to help bands, you name it, I could tell you how like every stone, how to turn Penn because those pennies add up, those pennies, added dollars.

[00:07:24] Nick: And you know, that's how bills get paid, you know, whether it be licensing sink. So that's, my core background. But anyways yeah, I've been doing it ever since. I love what I do. Yeah, I love working with artists.

[00:07:36] James: that's the thing there. Like, first of all, having that immense experience, but it sounds like you're also answering the second part of the question of what inspires you is just working for those artists, helping those artists get to the next step, find that 85 k of missing royalties just being there for them.

[00:07:53] James: Is that what inspires you? Is that why you're still trucking here doing 20 hour days, 15 years later?

[00:07:57] Nick: well, what really inspires me is like, [00:08:00] finding money for your client. That's always nice. Like calling your client be like, Hey, I have money for you. They love that shit. What band doesn't? But honestly like, it's when you see an artist that you've been helping build and you got the entire team there, they're on stage and they're playing to like 500 plus people or they're selling out their hometown, it's like, I'm not on stage, but like seeing all the stuff from a logistical standpoint, that's what gets me going.

[00:08:22] Nick: that's what I like and. Over the last few years, I've really gotten into the sponsorship game and that I like because it allows me to be creative. You know, we've done deals with airlines, we've done deals with radio company like Bump Box guitar companies. You know, I'm working on, I'm trying to get a, granola bar company to sponsor some of my artists because it offers, the daily fruits and vegetables of what a person should eat.

[00:08:47] Nick: And I'm like, well, hey, my artists don't really eat that healthy on the road. Let's do a deal. You know, yeah, it's just, I love, as a manager it's different every day.

[00:08:55] Nick: it's not the same thing. Whereas like when I worked in royalties, it was like, do the numbers, [00:09:00] calculate statements, you know, it's, that was very repetitive work. Whereas like a manager, it's different. And it's been different and I've got crazy stories that, you know, I've actually started writing them down and making talks about them, so,

[00:09:12] James: Yep. Well, that's really cool and I think we're gonna have to have you back on the show for another episode in the future to talk about some of these other topics. But for now, I would say let's dive in on TikTok and nerd out about the power of social media, which we already did a little bit just talking about how we connected through there, how you and Matt Bacon connected through there.

[00:09:32] James: how Matt Bacon and I connected on social media, all of that, here's the big question, which is probably what no one wants to hear, but also needs to hear. How has artist development changed over the last few years with the prevalence of TikTok?

[00:09:46] Nick: Oh, artists like you have to have it. I remember seeing like it growing a lot in 2020 and telling artists, I work with artists, I don't work with, you need to be on this. it's gonna change the game. [00:10:00] And now it's, just like when Facebook came out and you had MySpace and there was artists that weren't on MySpace and there was artists that are on Facebook, you know, TikTok is still in its infancy and I don't want to hear anybody say, oh, it's gonna get banned, or this, or they're spy.

[00:10:14] Nick: Listen, these things listen to you a hundred times a day. you know, and I catch a lot of shit for this because they're like, oh, the app's spying on you. I'm like, okay, what app is spying on you? What, you know, we could say, Walmart and next thing you know, we're gonna see ads on the, you know, but as far as like, not even just TikTok, just like Instagram real, like short form content is king.

[00:10:36] Nick: Now that is document. we're all on our phone 20 hours plus a day, aimlessly scrolling at night. Nobody wants to see ads. They want to see cool shit. So I tell my bands, I tell bands I don't work with, I tell bands I do work with.

[00:10:48] Nick: Document Your Journey, people want to see behind the scenes. They don't wanna see ads all day long.

[00:10:54] James: Yeah, and and that's the thing too, like I see some artists and every single post is promoting [00:11:00] something and it's like, yeah, you should promote your events, but also, like you're saying, people something that they wanna see.

[00:11:06] James: I know that can be difficult for a band who not very active, so they can only post new content every few months.

[00:11:13] James: But that's why if you trickle things out, you know, like you get a killer live set of photos. Don't post 'em all on day one. Post 'em like every other day for the next few weeks. That way you have fresh content and you can add different captivating captions, that kind of stuff. TikTok, of course you need video, so try and put together some clips, whether it's behind the scenes, you're doing rehearsals, you do a quick rig rundown or something like that.

[00:11:36] James: Like you have all these options and most of them don't take a lot of effort cuz TikTok is not really like a high production value platform.

[00:11:43] Nick: No, it's not.

[00:11:44] James: you don't want to be terrible in like a dark room where nobody can see your face and your audio's all terrible. But if you have decent lighting and your audio's, okay, that's plenty.

[00:11:55] James: I mean, how many people post tos, they're like sitting in bed, like they just woke up and their hair is all [00:12:00] messed and they just, their first thought and they post a TikTok about it. That happens.

[00:12:03] Nick: And then it goes viral, you know? a lot of times bands and creatives, I hate this word. And the word is cringe. I'll hear art. Oh, I don't wanna post that thing. It's cringe. Nobody thinks your shit's cringe. Nobody cares. wanna see cool shit. you know, I'll have artist. like, well check out so-and-so, and they're like, oh, I don't like their music. It's cringe. I'm like, oh, really? Well, 20 million other people that listen to them on Spotify disagree with, with you.

[00:12:28] Nick: You know, there's 8 billion people in this world. You know, obviously you gotta like put some effort into your, your social media, but nine times outta 10 people don't think your shit's cringe. they like seeing the journey.

[00:12:38] James: Yeah, I agree. And I mean, Let's take Nickelback for a hot topic. It used to be cool to hate Nickelback, and maybe it still is, I don't know. But guess what? they make more money than any DIY band. So what if they're cringe? They're doing something they enjoy and they're making a career out of it.

[00:12:54] James: And that's not to say that artists shouldn't have authenticity, but don't be afraid of [00:13:00] pushing yourself to do something that's uncomfortable, because sometimes that alone is what gets people to notice. Because guess what? If 90% of artists aren't pushing themselves, people will notice the 10% who are, that's really what it comes down to. So I, I totally agree. Cringe, not a good word to describe artists who are successful. I think maybe that's another question is how do you avoid the ultimate gut punch that is comparing yourself to another artist because. That's one of the things that, you know, you're looking for artists who do well on social media and you see, oh, they have, you know, 60,000 followers. I have a thousand.

[00:13:36] James: How am I ever gonna get there? Which is really tough cuz you wanna look at their page and see what they're doing well, so you can adapt it to your band. But at the same time, you're seeing that comparison. do you think artists can react to that? To not get, knocked back a step

[00:13:50] Nick: I deal with that every day. know, I always say like, a true manager is like a fan, a confidant, you know, you gotta be there for your client. But that's an emotional thing that [00:14:00] a lot of. Artists have is like, they compare it. I almost, you have to say, you have to have tunnel vision.

[00:14:05] Nick: One thing I've noticed is that a lot of successful artists they're a little bit aware of like what other people are doing, but they're so focused on their own career in pushing it, you know, and I tell artists like, you can be aware, but like, every year I always hear, what is Paris doing?

[00:14:19] Nick: What is Sleep Token doing? What is this band doing? What is I prevail doing? What is, you always have your hot band at, at the moment, and it's like everyone compares them to that band. And, I wish nothing but success for each band, but I, I always tell clients and artists you know, okay, so that band did a cover.

[00:14:37] Nick: Everyone's thinking they have to do that now, you can do trends and everything, but like, you can't get fully neighbored in that. you know, you gotta to do your own thing. You have to, you know, have I told my artist to do trends?

[00:14:49] Nick: Absolutely. Um, it's great for views and whatnot, but like, you can't get obsessed with it. you really have to ghost it and post it, you know, like you really do. And once you put out that content, focus on the next [00:15:00] thing.

[00:15:00] Nick: Cuz if not, it will fuck with your mentality.

[00:15:03] James: I love that. And that's something that even me personally, like, I'll be like, oh, how's that post doing? And oh, that one got 10,000 views. Great. Why does that one only have 200? What did I

[00:15:11] Nick: Yeah. And you can't do that.

[00:15:12] Nick: you can't do that because dude, in the entire music business, Trace every big artist and they'll tell you, yeah, didn't think this would be my number one hit versus this song I thought was gonna, it's the same thing with social media.

[00:15:24] Nick: the post that you think are gonna go through the roof, of the time they're not. And the ones that you, oh, this one's d and then, and then you're gonna drive yourself crazy wondering why did the no hit record? Put the shit out.

[00:15:35] Nick: You can control one thing, how many times drive, bat, hit record, put it out there.

[00:15:39] Nick: Same thing with like recording music. you have to control what you can control and that is your release of content, and how many songs you can put out. and every time you put out content, every time you put out a song, you're at bats swinging for the fences. And if you miss, make another one.

[00:15:54] Nick: Get back at the bat, put out another one. why I tell my artists.

[00:15:57] James: I love that advice, especially like as [00:16:00] a baseball fan, I'm just like, yeah, that makes sense. no one bats a thousand, so you shouldn't expect that. two 50 is a great batting average. That's one in four.

[00:16:07] James: if you're doing well with one in four releases, one in four social posts, whatever it is, that's good. maybe the thing that people should also compare when they are making these comparisons is look at the major artists and don't just look at, oh wow, this has so many thousands of likes, or so many millions of likes. But say, look, this one got a hundred thousand, this one got half a million.

[00:16:28] James: Clearly they have the same spikes as well, just on a larger scale.

[00:16:31] James: So it's okay if I have a post that has a hundred likes and I have a post that has 500 likes. that's normal. They have that at every level.

[00:16:38] Nick: a lot of bands will say, I've been doing this for 10 plus years. Most bands have been a band for 10 plus years. And it's that old social media picture of like the iceberg. You only see the tip of the iceberg.

[00:16:49] Nick: You don't see how many posts and social media images and, and YouTube videos got zero traction that artists put out. you really can't, you should not [00:17:00] overthink this.

[00:17:00] James: That's my LLC name for a reason. Don't overthink this llc. Literally Thank you. A friend of mine came up with it and I was like, Hey, you can name it this, cuz we were trying to figure it out. I was like, yeah, that's a great idea. I'll use it. And literally just didn't overthink it.

[00:17:12] James: I said, I love it. We'll go with it.

[00:17:13] James: Bandhive that took a longer time to choose?

[00:17:16] Nick: So 10 and 8 is actually my shoe size. I was born with two different sized feet, and that's my shoe size

[00:17:22] James: got it. Nice. I dig that.

[00:17:24] Nick: And you see how they're two Yeah. this was a deal we do with Converse for custom shoes.

[00:17:29] Nick: Yeah. I have two different sized feet. So that's 10 and 8 and 10 and 8 Management stands for.

[00:17:34] James: Oh man, I love that. That's so cool that must have been a, a lot of buying two pairs of shoes back in the day though, before you were able to make that deal,

[00:17:41] Nick: Oh man. Well, now I have what's called soulmates it's people that are opposite shoe size of me, and we trade shoes.

[00:17:48] James: Oh, that's fantastic.

[00:17:49] Nick: Yeah, because I, you gotta buy two pairs. say I buy like Chucks or whatever, or like Doc Martins, and it's like I'll have a leftover pair. I'll text one of my soulmates. I'm like, Hey, I got an extra pair of [00:18:00] shoes because it's the leftovers for my two pair. And then we'll give 'em to each other.

[00:18:04] James: Yeah. So you're 10 and 8 and they're eight and 10, and That's so cool.

[00:18:07] James: that's a great example I think of you said, I'm not gonna overthink this. is a name, it works, let's roll. that kind of decision paralysis, I'm sure there's a term for that, but I see a lot of artists get stuck on that, where there's this one little thing, and I think it's probably a manifestation of fear in some way. They're, they're afraid of, you know, being judged or being hurt in some way, but it manifests as this.

[00:18:28] James: Indecisiveness of, we don't know what to call the song. We don't know. Maybe we need another round of mixed revisions. We don't know who we want for mastering. Like, and it takes weeks, months, maybe even years for them to make a decision that they could make in 30 seconds. And that, and that's literally like so frustrating to see.

[00:18:45] Nick: it's so funny that you're saying this because I mean, I cannot tell you. And then this goes out to all my, all my clients bust my balls about this. Cause I'll tell them, send me the final, don't send me that bullshit. Hey ish. Go, here's the master. It's 99%. We have [00:19:00] one thing to change. send this out to industry people.

[00:19:02] Nick: No one's gonna notice this one thing, but we've gotta change it. artists do that or they'll hear with like one little thing and it'll fuck with their head. And I'm like, sounds great.

[00:19:11] Nick: I have a rule with all my artists. Don't send me anything. Not finished because I'm not an artist. it's either good or it's not good. see that's something I catch a lot of shit for because I'm not a musician. And I'll say your average music fan, who's not a musician, They don't care about a mix, they don't care about the sound, they don't care about none of that.

[00:19:32] Nick: Artists care about that and as they should care about that. But your final product is either good or bad. That's it. If it's good, people will listen to it. in the metal community, you'll hear like, you know, oh, so and so fans say the mixes and, okay, that's like a small portion, you know, you're always gonna have people critiquing.

[00:19:48] Nick: And plus I always tell my bands, this goes back to paying attention to like what, comments and views and whatnot. If you're paying attention to like the 1% hate or the 1% judging, [00:20:00] you don't have enough things on your plate. I'll have an artist.

[00:20:02] Nick: Well, so and so said this. I'm like, you got a thousand comments. That's two people that hate it. Go write me a song. we have way bigger things to worry about than those two people out of a thousand fucking comments. You know? Like, come on, hell, this podcast is probably gonna get a couple comments of people disagreeing.

[00:20:17] Nick: it's opinions. You're allowed to have your own

[00:20:19] James: always.

[00:20:20] Nick: Yeah. you know, I read, comments on like, you know, Matt Bacon, venture music, people disagreeing. It's like, not letting it destroy their day.

[00:20:29] James: Yeah. And, and that's the thing, like with handling social media, this isn't so much as a, rule, as like a uh, a personal filter. If somebody leaves a comment, disagreeing, I'll reply to 'em, no problem. You know, expand on my, viewpoint, and then if they leave another one and they still don't get it, I'll explain it again.

[00:20:45] James: And if they leave a third one and they're just being belligerent, and it's clear that they're not trying to understand somebody else's point of view, blocked, I don't care. I don't know this person. If I know them, they're not behaving like that. what's it to me to have one person less watching my videos?

[00:20:59] James: I literally do not [00:21:00] care.

[00:21:00] James: So it's like a three strike rule, three strikes, you're out, you're done. Or ultimately, if somebody is attacking people in my comments, they're gone immediately. Like if somebody leaves a comment, whether I agree with that comment or not, if there's like personal insults being thrown, the person insulting them is gone immediately I don't care if they direct that at me, but I have no idea what kind of struggles people in my comments are facing.

[00:21:24] James: So I'm just not gonna allow attacks on people in those comments cuz I don't want to ever, find out later that something somebody said in the comments section on one of my videos, contributed to

[00:21:34] Nick: The negative

[00:21:34] James: Just like, Hey, you're gone.

[00:21:36] Nick: oh, 100%. The negative comment thing has always been weird to me because if I don't like something, you know what I do? I scroll away from it. I don't comment, oh, this sucks, I don't listen to it. if it's awesome, I'll comment, oh, this fucking rocks, man.

[00:21:51] Nick: This, is lit, I'll see someone comment, oh, this genre's been done before.

[00:21:54] Nick: I'm like, you must not have a lot going on in your time, bro. Like, seriously,[00:22:00] [00:22:00] James: and that's exactly what it is, because almost every single time, if I get somebody who is violently disagreeing, can share their opinions and I, I've, not made friends, but connected with people who disagreed, like, Edwin McCain. the nineties artist, he's still around.

[00:22:16] James: He commented on one of my videos, not gonna lie, at the time, I didn't know who he was, and he was disagreeing. I was like, well, but I see it this way. And we were chatting and then some lady comes in is like, are you arguing with Edwin McCain? I'm like, what are you talking about?

[00:22:27] James: Looking him up? And I'm like, oh, sick. And he had followed me already. We were just having like a polite discussion and this lady was so offended that I didn't agree.

[00:22:35] James: but now we follow each other and I'm just like, oh, that's sick. going back to the power of networking on TikTok, social media in general. I've also seen 95% of the time or more, this is just, pure subjective percentages in my head. If somebody is violently disagreeing, you click on their profile

[00:22:54] Nick: picture.

[00:22:55] James: a fake picture or it's a picture of a cat

[00:22:57] James: account is. Private [00:23:00] or completely empty,

[00:23:01] Nick: like

[00:23:01] James: would be willing to bet that it's private because they don't want anyone to see It's empty.

[00:23:04] Nick: I always tell my artist, you realize it's some kid just trying to push buttons. They're probably some 15 year old or 16 year old living in their mom's ba. It's just like, I'm like, really? You're gonna let that ruin your day?

[00:23:17] Nick: Like, come on.

[00:23:18] James: sometimes I do see it then when it's like, some middle-aged dude who thinks they're hot shit and it's like, oh, cool, like you're a systems engineer for tours. that's really cool, but you actually know how the music business works or do you just know how to plug stuff in without blowing it up?

[00:23:35] James: Like you been in a band. Are you a tour manager to be fair, a lot of my experience is on the production side, but at the same time, I've always like soaked up all this knowledge. So when I see somebody saying, that's not how local shows work, I'm like, no, that's exactly how local shows work.

[00:23:48] James: What do you know? And it's like, cool, you're a systems engineer. I don't care. That's not what we're talking about. We're not talking about how to set up a line array. We're talking about how to put together a local show successfully.

[00:23:57] James: we could rabbit hole on this for

[00:23:59] Nick: we could, [00:24:00] because I, I'll have someone that. Argue with me about like how the music and the entertainment business works, and I'm just like, I do this full time. I pay my bills by doing this. yeah, you're allowed to have your opinion, but you're wrong and I'm not gonna waste time or argue with some, you know, but going back to what we were saying it's funny, I don't know if you've noticed this, but I, I have, as far as the interactions between the different platforms, I wanted to touch base on this. It's, how bands communicate on Facebook versus TikTok and Instagram.

[00:24:31] Nick: Y yes. I'm very pro short form content. TikTok, that's my favorite app. I love it. I do notice that like there is a lot less toxicity on TikTok versus like your Facebook and your Twitters I don't know. That's just my personal opinion. I have gotten the amount of business and leads and getting ahold of people and I mean, even you and I via TikTok, it's so much easier to get a hold of people, via the app.

[00:24:56] Nick: I love it.

[00:24:56] James: Yeah, absolutely. And to be honest, I, don't [00:25:00] do a lot with Facebook these days anymore just because it's such a dead platform because of that toxicity. But I have absolutely seen it in comments and like, you know, the local news will post something about like, you know, so and so does this, and half the comments are people saying, yes, this is amazing.

[00:25:14] James: And and the other half is like, oh, it's all Joe Biden's fault. I'm like, that's all you had to say about like a decision that local politicians made that's not the president, that's local. you voted for these people. That's literally on you like you voted.

[00:25:27] Nick: we're gonna get comments on this with, band saying, well, my band still uses Facebook and it's still our number one. I'm like, okay, that's good for your band. We're not talking about your band. You know, it's I'll play devil's advocates.

[00:25:39] Nick: Some platforms are better for some bands. It's just the way it is, But in my opinion, what I've found is that the direction of the music business is going short form content. Twitch, discord, TikTok, YouTube, shorts is the way to go. I'm not by any means telling any

[00:25:53] James: I agreed.

[00:25:54] Nick: saying Delete your Facebooks, delete your Instagrams, delete your Twitters.

[00:25:57] Nick: The part of being in business [00:26:00] is seeing trajectory of where business is going it's the same thing with like news and media. my newest client is uh, country Minute on TikTok, and I'm not downplaying the importance of any music magazine or music media website, but when's the last time you've been to one of those websites?

[00:26:18] Nick: of your stuff on social media,

[00:26:19] James: I'm not willing to admit how, not recently

[00:26:22] Nick: Exactly. let's just say we probably both agree. Last time we were on one of those websites was when Warp Tour was still going on. You know, it's been that, it's been that long, you know, like,

[00:26:33] James: i

[00:26:33] Nick: with like,

[00:26:34] James: Four years later.

[00:26:35] Nick: I know, right? Well, and that's another thing going like the industry changes. And that's why I was, you know, I push all my artists to TikTok and you know, you'll have artists, oh, another platform. Well, you know, look at Gen Z, look at 21 and under if you want that demographic.

[00:26:51] James: wanna feel really old. I feel really old. Gen Z started around like 95, 96. So me as a a 93 child, I'm [00:27:00] 30 now.

[00:27:00] James: have quite a few friends who are Gen Z and they're only like two years younger. I'm like, this should not be a thing.

[00:27:06] James: we're talking about like 27, 28 year olds or Gen Z and it's just mind boggling to me. It makes me feel old.

[00:27:12] Nick: Well, my, son is six and he's Jen Alpha and he's, I think six is too young for a phone, but like, he'll like, let Danny, let me play on TikTok. Let me, you know, it's just crazy, the different generations. But like, going back to like, you know, again, we're not saying for any band, you know, if, if you are signed to a label or if you're signed to a district deal or any like, or you have a booking agent, it's good business to be everywhere.

[00:27:36] Nick: And we're not saying delete your social media. You know, I wanna make that very clear to any band. It's like, oh, Facebook's our number one, or Instagram, or this is that. We're not saying delete any social media. We're just saying the trend of the entertainment business is leaning towards short form content, which is your tos, which is your Instagram reels your YouTube shorts.

[00:27:58] Nick: It's going towards that way [00:28:00] for anyone listening, that's what we're saying.

[00:28:01] James: Yeah. Well, and I, I think I also have one question to ask to the bands who say, oh, well, Facebook is our biggest platform, like you were mentioning, relative to what, because maybe you're not getting any engagement on TikTok and you're getting 10 likes on Facebook. That just tells me you're doing something wrong on TikTok.

[00:28:16] James: you're getting like a thousand likes on Facebook, great. Then yeah, keep that up. That's good. But your biggest platform has to have some kind of actual legitimate result, not just a splash in the bucket. And honestly, 20 to 30 likes on Facebook is good these days, in my opinion. I see major brands getting under 500 or under a thousand likes, and I'm just like, wow, Facebook is dead.

[00:28:40] James: then you look at that same brand on TikTok and it's like, cool, 10,000 people like this video, they have 50,000 views. It's working.

[00:28:48] James: So if, your Facebook is your best, but it's still dead, try another platform before saying, yo, Facebook is your best. That's my thoughts on the subject at least.

[00:28:56] Nick: I always tell my clients, it goes back to the [00:29:00] comparing thing because man, have you ever looked at like K-Pop, TikTok, some of those videos got like 90 million views. Like, it's insane. but like, bands should be everywhere. they need to be consistent.

[00:29:12] Nick: They need, you know, it's just, if this is the life you want, just like if you're a sport, you played baseball, football, you gotta do interviews. I tell my bands, you want this life, you gotta do social media.

[00:29:22] James: what's amazing to me, and if this goes, and gets any attention on TikTok among the wrong audience, I'm gonna get canceled here. But the manipulative marketing practices in K-pop are mind boggling to me. that is now illegal, like, don't know how much he looked into this Michigan, but back in the day until about 2017 or 2018, the K-Pop Idols, some of them had contracts that said they couldn't date anyone, they couldn't marry anyone, all that stuff because they

[00:29:49] Nick: I didn't know that.

[00:29:49] James: to think that these guys are eligible bachelors and it, got overturned.

[00:29:54] James: Like they've banned that in South Korea saying like, this is not okay.

[00:29:57] James: But look at any of the biggest bands out there. [00:30:00] How many of them have any public information about who they're dating? These are huge celebrities. If they were dating somebody, that information would be out there. So maybe it's not in their contract.

[00:30:09] James: But they still know, hey, we're not allowed to date anyone because we'd lose half our fans overnight because they'd be like, oh,

[00:30:15] Nick: interesting. I didn't, I didn't know that. I mean, I've heard of some I've seen some shitty deals in my life. But, that's Wow. To be able to control your personal life.

[00:30:23] Nick: that's crazy.

[00:30:24] James: That's the thing. They like, they have them live in these compounds. The band lives together, which, I mean, let's be real, a lot of who are up and coming live together, but that's by choice. They're just like, Hey, let's all rent a house together. It's not the label saying, Hey, we're going to build a compound for you so you can all live together 24 7.

[00:30:40] James: and, and that's just one of the things that they do, which I admire how effective the marketing is K-Pop. I'm not a fan of what I perceive to be manipulation of typically like teenage women, And I realize that yes, there are older people who like it, there are guys who like it, but for the most part it's manipulation of teenage women.

[00:30:58] James: and I think that is [00:31:00] just messed up. And so, as much as I can appreciate certain aspects of their marketing, the manipulative stuff is just I wanna vomit, to be honest.

[00:31:07] Nick: yeah, it's, it's definitely a crazy world we live in, but like, even, going back to what we were saying about like, Z and Gen Alpha it astounds me of like these generations coming up how are never gonna know what it's like to not ever have the internet. Never not have social media, it's just crazy.

[00:31:24] Nick: my son's six and like, he knows what DoorDash is. He knows what, like, oh daddy, we, we ran outta like toilet paper, just, but dude, you know, put it on the phone. It's wild to me, you know? So, going back to what we were saying about like the music business and whatnot, and trends.

[00:31:39] Nick: It's like, my advice to bands out there is like, if you want to be relevant part of your job is you gotta on top of what's hot. TikTok might be gone next year if there's another platform, remember there was one that everyone thought was gonna kill Facebook.

[00:31:52] Nick: What was it, Vero or something? I can't remember the name of it was during Covid, you know,

[00:31:56] Nick: But like, again, the reason why I push my [00:32:00] clients to TikTok, and the reason why I push my clients to sort short form media is because it's what works.

[00:32:05] Nick: It's what's getting business, it's what's getting attention. It's what's getting click over at Spotify. It's what's getting people to, listen to music. It's what's getting artists discovered, and it's just when there's another new thing that's hot, I'll probably be pushing all for that.

[00:32:19] Nick: You know, it's my job as a manager to push push my artist to like, what's the number, like the trending thing. It's our job to look and see trending.

[00:32:28] James: Yeah, absolutely. And I think there's a lot of artists who, I don't think this, I know this, there's a lot of artists who are stuck in their ways and they say, oh, well, you know, so and so didn't have to do all this to get famous. I'm like, Yeah, that was 20 years ago. Has the world not changed at all in 20 years?

[00:32:45] Nick: I hate that. well, so-and-so put out a cover. So-and-so covered Taylor Swift, so-and-so covered this, so we have to do this. I'm like, you and every other band uh, it's so annoying, But again, going back, you know, different things work for, for different artists.

[00:32:59] Nick: [00:33:00] we've gotten brand deals. We've gotten you know, we've gotten label deals. We've gotten, you know, I've made a lot of connections through social media and TikTok. you and I connected this way. That's what social media's for. communicating with people, reaching out, making opportunities.

[00:33:14] Nick: as a manager, it's my job to network and know everyone on the business side. And I always tell my bands you need to know every band. like what we're doing. Artists need to do that and reach out, search new music, hashtag new music search, hashtag music bus.

[00:33:30] Nick: You know, reach out to new bands, share other bands. Shit. bands remember that stuff when a band is submitted to a tour, bands remember, like who they're friends with the power of networking I can't express like how much has played a part for my career, how much has paid a part for, bands I work with, deals, whatnot. Like, you have to network. You just have to

[00:33:48] James: Absolutely, and, and I love that you say bands remember, because they both remember who's nice to them, and they also remember who ghosts them.

[00:33:55] James: Because I've seen local bands who just don't reply to dms, and I'm just like, [00:34:00] you're a local band. You have 30 seconds to reply. Even if it's a no,

[00:34:04] Nick: People, and forget when you

[00:34:06] James: a million DMS a day.

[00:34:07] Nick: people remember when you were an asshole to them, and I think you, you mentioned this in another one of your podcasts of like, in the music business, There's like a shift of power every four or five years you have new power players, you have new people that are in charge of record labels.

[00:34:24] Nick: And I can't tell you of like in my early days of my career of like just being nice to someone and then like, that person's the senior a and r of a major label. And they remember, oh, Misko was nice to me eight years ago when I was a nobody. or that booking agent. Oh, he was, he was polite to me.

[00:34:40] Nick: And now his artists are playing state, you know, people remember that shit. And the music business is however small you think it is, it's 10 times smaller than that. my bands always make fun of me cause I'm like, oh, I know so and so, not because it's like you're name dropping people.

[00:34:54] Nick: Literally, if you work in the music business, I, I always used to say that like, if you can't do like three, what is it? Three [00:35:00] degrees of separation. You really don't work in the entertainment business because everyone's really connected by like three people in this business because it's that small.

[00:35:07] James: absolutely. It, it astounds me like, oh, I'm like two degrees from that famous person, what that's

[00:35:12] James: little me like, it's really cool, but at the same way it's kind of freaky, Anyway, to kind of harness us back here and wrap things

[00:35:18] Nick: Yeah. I know we're jump, I know we're jumping around everything. I love it.

[00:35:21] James: that's on me just as much I love delving into all these other topics and we definitely do have to have you back on the show in the future. What would your advice be to an artist who is hesitant to start using TikTok? What would you tell them just to get their feet wet right now?

[00:35:36] James: How should they start?

[00:35:37] Nick: Well, I would actually send them to, Mr. Beast, answer this question. And, you know, he's one of the biggest YouTubers in the world, and I know we're talking about TikTok, but his principal still works for this. he has this thing where he says and I'm, I'm gonna steal his answer cuz it's perfect.

[00:35:55] Nick: he says, when you start making content, it doesn't matter if you're an artist or you're a [00:36:00] musician or an influencer or whatever, don't complain after 10 videos, come back to me after a hundred videos. give it time.

[00:36:08] Nick: You know, a lot of times, artists, they'll say, oh, you know, I made 10 tos. And nothing happened. You know, it's just like with anything else, like you have to put effort into it, you know? You have to put time, if you want it to work, you have to put effort into it.

[00:36:22] Nick: So with artists on TikTok, would say just have to control what you can control, and that's how many videos you put out, your consistency. if a video's not doing well, repost it, that's a big thing on TikTok. have fun with it. that's a big thing. I want, I wanna touch base on that, and I want to give that advice to artists. not necessarily just for TikTok, but just for their career in music and entertainment in general. This is a fun business.

[00:36:49] Nick: Don't forget to have fun. us doing this podcast is fun. After I get off with you, I'm gonna do some sponsorship acquisition and pitching, which it's fun[00:37:00] we're not out there, on highways. We're not like, we're working in music.

[00:37:05] Nick: Like, enjoy your wins. Have fun on your journey. so many bands, they get obsessed with that. The algorithms and the number, like document it. Have fun. remember why you got started and you I'll never forget all these conversations I had. You know, I've been, I'm blessed, I've been doing this for 15 years and I can't tell you how many people have given me the advice of, you know, when the lights go out, get out, kid.

[00:37:29] Nick: don't be jaded. Like, I've been doing this. I'm still not jaded. I still love going to shows. I still love discovering new bands. If you wanna work in music, entertainment, have fun doing it. a lot of bands, forget that shit. you, whether it's 10 people or a thousand people, have fun.

[00:37:43] Nick: You know, whether you're making your 10th TikTok or your hundredth, have fun doing it because this is a fun business. And you old saying like, we're not here for a long time. We're here for a good time. So, work hard, play hard, and keep at it.

[00:37:56] James: Man, that is great advice. And it took me, [00:38:00] for my TikTok, I think like six months of daily posting before I had anything really pop off over like five or 10,000 views. So that's like 180 videos. That's a lot. But I just said, Hey, I'm gonna do this. And I kept going and I made it.

[00:38:12] James: my TikTok is not huge by far, but I've had videos of over a hundred thousand.

[00:38:16] James: I have one with over 500,000 views.

[00:38:18] James: It's not one I expected, but it worked.

[00:38:20] Nick: my other piece of advice to any artist is you gotta say, this is the one, this is the one. Like, don't ever say that. Don't say this is the one. This is the song. This is the tour, this is the post, this is the video. Don't say that just. Put it out. You know what I'm saying? Like, never ever, ever, ever put all your eggs on one horse in the race.

[00:38:41] Nick: Like, cuz you're just going to open yourself up for heartbreak.

[00:38:45] James: Yeah, absolutely. and that's tough. Like just setting those, those high expectations, it's not fun cuz you're almost never gonna meet them. But then when you do and it's a surprise, that's the best feeling.

[00:38:56] Nick: Yeah. I was told earlier in my career, you're gonna have your high [00:39:00] highs. And you're low lows. And my friend Mike Mauer, he, he manages Ice Nine Kills. He told me that early, early in my career. And, I guess if we're, spitting out advice for bands, that's another thing is like, have mentors have people that you look up to.

[00:39:15] Nick: can name like, four or five people that I look up to people that have been there the music business is a cutthroat Absolutely.

[00:39:23] Nick: But like, it's not what it is. Like in the movies,

[00:39:26] James: like big farmer big oil.

[00:39:28] Nick: there's a lot of goodhearted people that work in the entertainment and music business. A lot of goodhearted people and. are there assholes? Absolutely. But what business sector doesn't have assholes? you'll see music fans, oh fuck, record labels.

[00:39:41] Nick: But like, at the end of the day, like there's bad record labels, there's good record labels. you can say that anything, there's bad banks, there's good banks, there's bad restaurants, there's good restaurants there. You know, it's, you see any business sector. But going back to my original point here is like, there's a lot of good people that work in the music business find those [00:40:00] people you know, goes back to what we were talking earlier in this podcast. Like if you hear that like, so and so's bad and you start hearing that over and over, you might not wanna hang around that person because, I have a pretty good reputation. I get along with most people in this business and I like to do everything pretty honest and.

[00:40:17] Nick: Your reputation will travel. know, and bands talk. oh, how's this manager? How's this label? How's this agent? you're a musician. I'm sure you talk to, you know, like they're curious find the good people, find your mentors, have your circles, and, I've had a lot of relationships and friendships come outta this business.

[00:40:34] James: Yeah, man, that is fantastic advice. I love that. thank you so much man, for being here today and talking about this. I'm gonna wrap it up here cuz we're getting close to our uh, the time we booked and I know you got a lot of other stuff to do in your 20 hour workday, and so I don't want to make that a 21 hour day for you.

[00:40:51] Nick: You know, for you, I'd make a

[00:40:52] James: you go, I just wanted a Oh man. I appreciate that. Well, when you come back, maybe we'll do like a two-part episode or something and just have like a,

[00:40:58] Nick: have to do so,

[00:40:59] James: session or something. [00:41:00] We'll, figure that out later. But before you go, I do wanna shout out if people wanna learn more about you.

[00:41:04] James: They can go to 10 and 8 Management.com or Instagram and TikTok, you're at 10 and 8. Management. That's the numbers 10 and 8. Not spelled out, it's just the uh, one zero and the eight. aside from that, Mishko, anything else you want people to know, anything they should check out, you you have the floor.

[00:41:19] James: This is your shot for shameless self-promotion.

[00:41:21] Nick: Hmm. No, I think you hit it pretty much on the head on 10 and 8. Management on Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, Facebook, 10 and 8. Management. My last piece of advice I'm gonna give, artists, don't be hard on yourselves. Remember why you started creating music. Remember why you wanted to do this.

[00:41:39] Nick: Remember why you got on stage, why you picked up that instrument. You're gonna have high highs and low lows. Enjoy your journey, enjoy your wins, and just keep putting out music. we'll end on that.

[00:41:51] James: Man. I love that. Meshk, thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking the time outta your day to be here, and I hope you have an amazing day.

[00:41:57] Nick: Thank you, brother.