[00:00:00] James: Welcome to episode 163 of the Bandhive Podcast. It is time for another episode of the Bandhive Podcast. My name is James Cross and I help independent artist Tour Smart. This week on the show I have Matt Ho of Alive in Barcelona. How are you doing today?

[00:00:15] Matt: James, I am quite fantastic. It is a very cold morning here in Colorado. We had some snow the other day, and then immediately the weather dropped down to like, 10 degrees. And so uh, tomorrow morning it is supposed to be a high of negative six. so I'm taking tomorrow off of work now.

[00:00:32] Matt: I'm just gonna hang out at home with heaters going and probably watch Christmas movies all day with my So I'm in this great mood. It's a beautiful morning I'm gonna have an impromptu day off tomorrow. So, things are

[00:00:44] James: Yeah

[00:00:45] Matt: How's everything over there on the east side?

[00:00:46] James: Yeah. First of all, that sounds great. and for those of you who are wondering, this episode drops on January 10th, but we're recording it on December 21st, so that's why Christmas movies are still in vogue right now. But yeah, we also have some snow here. [00:01:00] It's supposed to. Really windy the next couple days.

[00:01:02] James: We have a high wind warning for four days. if the power goes out, yay

[00:01:08] James: a few weeks ago. I was filming a TikTok and the power went out and I just kept going and I was just like, oh, the power went out. And I went back to talking I got so many likes on that video.

[00:01:17] James: I'm like, of course. It's the one where literally the lights went out halfway through.

[00:01:21] James: also 1221 makes me think of AFI Prelude 1221, their intro track off of December underground. And this episode happens to come out on January 10th, 2023, which fun fact, back on January 10th, 2014.

[00:01:37] James: So nine years before this episode was released, I did an interview with AFI for the second time, I don't know, I've interviewed them like five times by now, but. My friend who was working on AFI News HQ with me said, Hey, what would you think if we asked them to read Just the summaries from some Fanfic stories. And to be clear, my friend and I were not into Fanfic, but we know that [00:02:00] the community had some really wacky stories out there. So we sat down with Adam and Hunter and did the interview, and at the end we're

[00:02:05] James: okay, so here's this idea. Would you feel comfortable with this? And they were. So it's just like a little one or two paragraph summary of the story and their reactions were priceless.

[00:02:18] James: So if anybody wants to see Hunter and Adam from AFI rating Fanfic about themselves that'll be linked in the show notes at Bandhive dot rock slash 1 63. Because that honestly was one of the most hilarious moments of my life. just for a tidbit here, one of them goes something along the lines of, wait, who's pregnant?

[00:02:37] James: You are. That's not even possible. I guess it's sci-fi

[00:02:41] Matt: Oh

[00:02:42] James: So that's

[00:02:46] Matt:

[00:02:46] Matt: That's ironic. I actually was talking about AFI yesterday.

[00:02:50] James: No way. If I were to say that, it would be nothing special. I mean, I'm wearing an AFI shirt right now. I talk about them every day. But you talking about afi, like, I wanna hear about

[00:02:59] Matt: [00:03:00] Somebody had tweeted name a song, you know, I'm, first and foremost a bassist. And so they said name a song that you can identify from, only the baseline. And I was like, oh, here we go. This is my

[00:03:10] Matt: you know, everybody else had like some pretty obvious ones like Queen,

[00:03:14] James: But boom

[00:03:18] Matt: and

[00:03:18] Matt: somebody else had said another iconic classic as well that I, can't recall off the top of my head, but it's like as soon as you hear it, you're like, oh yeah, I know that song. but I ended up saying, miss Murder, By afi of

[00:03:32] James: Yep octaves

[00:03:36] Matt: boom. I mean, it's just, it's so catchy and they hit that marketing so hard that

[00:03:40] Matt: every underground kid knew about December underground.

[00:03:43] James: Ha ha.

[00:03:44] Matt: uh that's Double down on that terrible one. and then also I included a few others on that list, like dance, dance from Fallout Boy, that's another

[00:03:51] Matt: instantly recognizable one, red Hot Chili Peppers, Danny California very, very recognizable but yeah, no, of all the bands, I was like, oh yeah, [00:04:00] look, AFI Missed Murder.

[00:04:01] Matt: Like, that was like one of the first ones that popped into my head. I was like, thinking about catchy baselines and I was

[00:04:06] James: yeah,

[00:04:06] Matt: definitely, definitely that one.

[00:04:09] James: yeah.

[00:04:10] James: Just to add to that and if anyone wants to listen to Stellar AFI base riffs, cuz Hunter is a beast, I would recommend Affliction that's off of December underground. I would recommend The Lost Souls and Sacrifice Theory both off of The Art of Drowning. And this is the song, this is probably my favorite AFI song and I'm really stoked cause I get to see it live in March.

[00:04:32] James: They're playing sing the Sorrow in Full on the 20th anniversary of the album release, which they said they would never do and now they're doing it. they haven't played Death of Seasons since 2010 because of all the screaming. And Davy can't scream live that much So I'm really stoked because that song has one of the coolest bass intros of all time.

[00:04:50] James: It just builds so perfectly. It's like building mystique and all of this. And then all of a sudden it's post hardcore in your face. And then at the end there's like cellos and stuff, and you're like, [00:05:00] what song is three different genres in one. that song is all over the place.

[00:05:03] James: But I love it and it's so good live and I've seen it. Four, five times live, but not in 12 years, almost 13. So I'm super stoked to see that if anyone is going to cease sing the Star in Full in LA in March, let me know. Let's meet up, because I'm gonna be there. I'm gonna have a posse. I'm stoked.

[00:05:21] James: all my old friends from the AFI community when I was working on the hq, I still run the unofficial Facebook group with like 5,000 people in it.

[00:05:30] James: So like I am going to have a posse and I would love to have you in said posse.

[00:05:34] Matt: that'd be tons of fun. Sing the Soros. Such a fantastic record.

[00:05:37] James: yeah. I'm so stoked. I'm also convinced that they're gonna do a DVD of it cuz they said this is the first and last time they're ever going to play that record in full. And I mean, that's like their seminal work. If they're never doing that again, you have to film that. they would be so stupid not to film that.

[00:05:54] Matt: I, love when bands do that, but it's like a love hate thing for me because I, I could not go see AFI [00:06:00] if they didn't play Girls Not Gray, I would just break, December Underground and sing the Sorrow. Like those albums were absolutely integral in my life. But, girls Not Gray was like the first AFI track that I heard

[00:06:11] James: Yeah

[00:06:11] Matt: what is this? is amazing. Like, what swallow me as.

[00:06:17] Matt: And I was like, dude, this just slaps so hard,

[00:06:19] James: Oh yeah

[00:06:20] Matt: energy, you know? It's like, this is so amazing. And then after that, I think I saw the music video for, Silver and Cold

[00:06:26] James: Oh yeah when Davy turns a ghost in

[00:06:33] Matt: Yeah. And literally it's like, what an amazing video where he's taking off all of his jewelry to kill himself, and

[00:06:38] James: Yep

[00:06:38] Matt: of his bandmates die.

[00:06:39] James: and he died too.

[00:06:41] James: he's a ghost. walk through

[00:06:42] James: him

[00:06:43] Matt: that whole album, I know we did an episode a while back. That was our favorite albums.

[00:06:46] James: Episode 100 if anyone wants to hear it. Bandhive.rocks/ 1 0 0. That's 100. And you can hear about all the incredible albums that we talked about. we each did our I think it was our top five I just the other day. top [00:07:00] five and like a billion honorable mentions. We 250 references.

[00:07:04] James: Sorry, Leland was a lot for you to write down. I apologize. apparently it's happening again. Maybe we'll do that for 200

[00:07:11] Matt: there you go. for all of you listening, now that we've been rambling for a long time, it actually

[00:07:15] James: Yeah

[00:07:16] Matt: I pertinent to what we're talking about. are actually spending today's episode talking about how important fans are and how you can really develop quality relationships with your fans and most importantly, not take them for granted.

[00:07:28] Matt: you kind of told a story earlier about fans being taken for granted as a fan, you, you kind of create this wonderful little uh, box that we put our, idols, I guess for lack of a better term, into, I'm always like, oh yeah, like for me, if I ever met, the Chili Peppers I'd, be like, oh my gosh, this band is so cool. These guys are gonna be my best friends. And bla you know, that's why they say never meet your heroes because you might

[00:07:51] James: Yep

[00:07:51] Matt: and they might suck.

[00:07:52] Matt: Exactly. So I mean, and so have I, it's funny too because, one of my favorite quotes, I have so many of them, is[00:08:00] it takes a lifetime to build a reputation, but only seconds to destroy it.

[00:08:04] Matt: in the digital age, specifically in the age of social media, it really can be seconds. And it's, and it's not even just like a, you know, before you used to be able to locally destroy your reputation in a matter of seconds. Now you can globally destroy your reputation in a matter of seconds.

[00:08:20] Matt: instantly, you put. one bad tweet, you put one bad, post on Facebook. I mean, shoot, you don't even have to be the one to put it. we've all seen embarrassing pictures of Beyonce, performing it music awards or embarrassing pictures of Miley Cyrus where like her outfit looks weird, you know?

[00:08:37] Matt: And it's like, I, I like to think of the internet as the Moss Isley cantina from Star Wars. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villain that is what the internet is. It is a cesspool of, all things terrible And it's also the greatest distribution tool in the history of the world. when harnessed correctly, it's fantastic when used improperly. [00:09:00] It is devastating.

[00:09:01] James: I absolutely agree and I've seen so many bands. Especially individual band members tear themselves down online. One thing that people might have heard about, which you probably have Matt, cuz you know these guys is probably about five or six years ago, red Jumpsuit apparatus got into a lot of trouble because they stole a photo from a photographer, didn't credit didn't pay.

[00:09:22] James: And then when the photographer asked them to pay, they like posted the dms basically berating the photographer being like, how dare you ask us for money? Like you got to shoot the show. It's like right, but that doesn't mean the photos are yours. it became this huge thing and probably more so for me cause I was in like press groups so I saw like everyone saying, red jumpsuit is so awful, blah, blah blah.

[00:09:42] James: Which I think they learned their lesson. I don't think they're terrible people but they basically canceled themselves temporarily

[00:09:48] Matt: Well, and

[00:09:49] James: and

[00:09:49] Matt: get really hairy too because in that scenario, that's two professionals the music industry can be very splintered at times.

[00:09:56] Matt: So, for you to find other professionals who are [00:10:00] basically actively trying to build up the industry you inadvertently bring them down, that's one of those things where a rising tide raises all ships. So if that ship is not rising, then neither is your tide.

[00:10:09] Matt: can definitely, definitely be, murky waters to

[00:10:13] James: Yeah, exactly. And you know, one thing that that actually reminds me of, especially what you were talking about earlier, about how artists can alienate their fans. About eight years ago, I think it was 2014, the used and taking back Sunday did a tour.

[00:10:28] Matt: amazing.

[00:10:29] James: and I was a casual fan of both bands. I was like, yeah, they make good music. I enjoy their stuff. I'm not a huge fan, but I'll go see the show. And I set up interviews with both bands and with the used, I did that interview first. I talked to Quinn, who was their guitarist at the time, the original guitarist of the band.

[00:10:46] James: So he's the one who wrote all of maybe memories, that song or uh that was the record name too. All of self-titled all their early records. That was Quinn.

[00:10:54] James: And fantastic interview. Now to be fair, I also knew their tour manager and I knew when [00:11:00] he says 15 minutes, it's more like 30. So , And I was like, do you want me to stop 15 or are you gonna let us know? And he says, I'll let you know. I'm like, okay. Cool. So that basically means I have 30 minutes and. I didn't even get through half my questions because Quinn just loved talking. he would give amazing answers. He'd go on for like five to seven minutes.

[00:11:19] James: I'd ask a follow up question of like a sentence and he'd keep going. It was amazing. I loved it. Great guy. Really enjoyed speaking with him. Next up, I interviewed John from taking back Sunday and started off perfectly normal. Like he was perfectly nice. I asked how he is, he started talking about how his kid is in a soccer match and like he's missing the match.

[00:11:37] James: I'm like, oh, that's too bad, man. That's gotta be really rough. And we chatted about that while I was getting set up and I was all set up, started the interview, super short answers, got through all my questions in like 10 minutes and I'm like, okay, thank you so much. And I ended the interview and I started wrapping my stuff up in the bag and he's just like, okay, thanks so much.

[00:11:57] James: Have a great day. Like, and starts moving me towards the [00:12:00] door. I'm like, dude, like give me a second to pack up my stuff. maybe he was having a tough day. I don't want anyone to think I'm saying John is a bad person. I know that, he was upset he was missing his kids' soccer match.

[00:12:11] James: But as an artist, you never know who you're talking to and how that's gonna affect them. Because I was not really a fan of even one of these bands. Like I enjoyed their music, but guess which band I still listen to a lot and which band I listen to. Once in a Blue Moon,

[00:12:26] James: if you guessed. I listened to the used a lot and I hardly ever listened to taking Back Sunday.

[00:12:30] James: You would be Correct because I have that memory of sitting with Quinn for 28 minutes having this amazing discussion and that left an impression on me and it also left an impression on me when John literally wouldn't even give me a minute to pack up my stuff after the interview was already shorter than it was supposed to be.

[00:12:47] James: he didn't even wanna gimme the full 15 minutes that were allotted. and that just rubbed me the wrong way. Now I enjoy Louder now that's one of my favorite albums. But I don't vibe with taking back Sunday. And I don't mean anything at [00:13:00] all against you, man. I know you love taking Sunday.

[00:13:02] James: They're like, they're your boys. So nothing against you whatsoever, but it matters. what, if I had been a huge taking back Sunday fan and he treated me like this, I would've been really upset. Now as a casual fan, I was just like, okay, whatever. Like it wasn't a good day, that's fine. But I am telling this story nine years later, eight years later, whatever.

[00:13:21] James: Because I

[00:13:22] Matt: Lasting impression.

[00:13:24] Matt: You know, it's funny, I actually have a taking back Sunday story as well. and it could have been a similar type deal with you. It was the first year we actually were out on Warp Tour and we were in Phoenix, Arizona. And that first year that we did the full tour was at the time, like one of the hottest summers that had ever hit.

[00:13:38] Matt: we were in Phoenix, like one of the hottest days. it was pretty early on in the tour, maybe, you know, like day five or something like that. It was hot and we were all outside in bus land and a group of people working the line.

[00:13:52] Matt: We were all standing around talking and exchanging ideas. we might have even been talking about where to get lunch. And Adam Lazarra walked up and I didn't [00:14:00] think anything about it. And then I realized who it was and I like had a total fangirl moment.

[00:14:03] Matt: I was like, oh my gosh, that's literally the very first man I ever saw take stage I was 15 and I saw taking back Sunday and my gosh, it was so cool. And worked up the courage to go talk to him and he was just really short, he didn't have much to say.

[00:14:16] Matt: He was just like, oh, cool, nice to meet you. he wasn't mean. he didn't, say anything detrimental or anything like that, mean, I was still stoked cuz I, I got to meet, this childhood idol of mine.

[00:14:26] Matt: and that could have had this really lasting impression. I could have been very upset by the brevity of the interaction. Well, fast forward a couple days. . At one of the barbecues in the evening, Adam found me at the barbecue and he came up and he said, Hey, I wanted to apologize for the other day.

[00:14:45] Matt: It was so hot in Phoenix that I just couldn't even think straight. He's like, I was exhausted. We had already played. I think I was like on the verge of heatstroke or something. but I just wanted to say I'm sorry for not [00:15:00] giving you more attention more of a conversation with you.

[00:15:03] Matt: And I was blown away. I mean, I, I did not expect an apology. I didn't even feel wronged by him. I didn't even think about it, cuz at the time I was like, oh my gosh,

[00:15:12] James: Yep

[00:15:13] Matt: Lara.

[00:15:13] James: That is a class

[00:15:15] Matt: it really was. I mean, I was nobody, I wasn't even on the tour. I was literally following the tour doing promotions.

[00:15:20] Matt: I was helping out lion bands. I was doing whatever I could to be noticed by anybody in the Warp tour scene to show them that I belonged there. And the first time I saw him, he was touring with Cypress Hill in Blink 180 2.

[00:15:30] Matt: he had made it long before I ever spoke with him the first time. He didn't need to take time out of his day. And he did. And then throughout the course of the tour, we had a whole bunch of interactions where we actually got into some deep conversations about like him and Jesse Lacy and their relationship the between them and

[00:15:47] James:

[00:15:47] James: brand

[00:15:48] Matt: and we really had a chance to like talk about The cool dynamics that had changed throughout the course, you know, of their career and, how they had changed his people and grown. and then the very last day of tour was in Portland, Oregon. [00:16:00] so everybody knows, when you get to the very last day of war tour, nobody wants to stay around.

[00:16:04] Matt: the last hangout day of warp tour is like generally two to three days before the final date and the final date. People like play load up and leave because they've been gone on one of the most strenuous tours they've ever been on for, two months. So he was sitting by his bus on the phone with his wife, and I walked by and just said, bye, Adam.

[00:16:24] Matt: I was walking to my bus and that was all that was going to be. And I keep walking and all of a sudden I hear, wait, wait, Matt, Matt and I turn around, and here Adam Lazarra is Phone in hand. Comes running towards me and came to just say, Hey, I really enjoyed all the conversations that we had over the tour.

[00:16:39] Matt: Thank you so much for all the kind words that you've had for us, and the encouragement. And I really appreciate it again, this was something he did not have to do, but he knew that, I essentially was a super fan. I wanted to be a musician my whole life. And I saw him take the stage first. And so there was this natural pedestal that I had put him on just, due to the de facto nature that [00:17:00] he was somebody that I saw on stage doing what I wanted to do. as a vocalist, those of you who don't know, go look up Adam Lazara vocal, Mike Tricks.

[00:17:10] Matt: Adam Lazar on stage is one of the most impressive, feats ever. And for those of you who don't understand how influential Adam Lazara is in the music industry, he is one of the first people. to bring in an emo hairstyle. just to put that into context for you, is like the father of the dead falcon, where you have the comb over coming across your eyes.

[00:17:29] Matt: It was like him and Davey havoc of AFI that were like the pioneers of that look,

[00:17:35] James: Yep

[00:17:36] Matt: for him to basically put his wife on hold and his kids on hold and, and then to physically stress himself to come and, and say bye when I wasn't even real, I wasn't trying to interrupt him at all, it wasn't just verbal.

[00:17:46] Matt: it was an action. It was him getting up and running over and thanking me and that to me, just like you remember that interview James, I remember Adam coming up and doing that, and I will always remember that because it [00:18:00] made me feel like I belonged. just like you felt like you did not belong because of the way that a rockstar interacted with you.

[00:18:07] Matt: I felt like I belonged because of the way that the rockstar interacted with me. that is, in my opinion, one of the most important lessons that you as an entertainer can learn. you have 10,000 interactions in a day with all sorts of different people. yes, we'll have tough days, we'll have, stresses that we have to endure.

[00:18:26] Matt: But your fans are the people that feed you, just like you don't go into a restaurant and take your frustration out on the server, you also do not take your frustration out on your fans. your fans, if you treat them wonderfully, they will never forget you. They will love you. going out on tour with Escape the fa, there was a girl who literally came out and she paid for like the highest v i p package at like four different shows.

[00:18:51] Matt: they loved her. they knew who she was when she showed up. they knew her first name, certain points in the tour, they had different things where it was like, oh on, this day you can have a pizza party with the band or [00:19:00] go to dinner with the band.

[00:19:00] Matt: Like she bought that. she like flew to, three or four different shows across the thing and they knew her. And it was, incredible to see like the devotion that this fan had to these guys. Tab Boot Craig Mamt was, heavily invested in, in the relationship with this fan as well.

[00:19:13] Matt: And I mean, so were some of the other guys too. But, everybody loves Craig Mait because he's jovial, he's a light in the room. and he really gets invested into people. when Craig goes to a music festival, he gets sad that he has to play music because it means that he gets to spend less time with friends.

[00:19:27] Matt: when he sees an old friend, his face lights up and it's all hugs and it's all, you know, like, he immediately wants to bring you into the party. And these fans, it's like, your fans are, the x factor in your business.

[00:19:38] Matt: you're a four piece band, they're the fifth member, they're the bank role. , as an artist, you get money from two different places. from your label or you get it from your fans.

[00:19:47] Matt: in order to get it from your fans, you have to provide value to your fans. You have to like be giving them things that they want to pay for.

[00:19:53] Matt: if you develop these awesome scenarios where you can have dinner, could change somebody's life,

[00:19:57] James: absolutely. we're gonna talk about how to [00:20:00] avoid alienating your fans, and that's a perfect example, is giving the fans something that they actually want. Rather than a $25 bar of soap that no one asked for when a your biggest album ever. And instead you say, no, here's a bar of soap.

[00:20:16] James: Wait, why are you upset that we are selling you overpriced soap?

[00:20:20] James: I've seen that happen

[00:20:21] James: Yeah So anyway, some of the things that I wanna run through real quick are what happens when a band takes their fans for granted? Because when you look at a band, you can kind of assume like, okay, they take their fans for granted, that's gonna upset those specific fans.

[00:20:37] James: But it's bigger than that because the best case scenario is that the fans lose interest in the band They might forget that you exist, but they're not going to go around and actively say, Hey, this band is bad for X, Y, Z reason. They're not gonna go out and try to cancel you. They're not going to go out and like throw around allegations against you.[00:21:00] [00:21:00] James: of course, if you've done something bad, they will do that as they should. But if you treat your fans with respect in any situation, in all situations all the time, then guess what? They're not gonna have anything to come after you for. if you don't treat your fans with respect, the next level up is that they might start dissing you online.

[00:21:19] James: They might start saying, Hey, this person was rude to me. They were a jerk. They did something that they really shouldn't have done, and I need to talk about it. whatever level it is, the fans will start talking about it. And then as that builds, guess what the next thing is? The band is gonna start losing steam because they don't have that passion anymore because they've noticed that their fans are quote unquote turning against us.

[00:21:40] James: It's like, no, actually you turned against your fans first and they're just reacting to you. now that results in the band phoning it in, which means, you know, lackluster releases, like, it doesn't sound good. Which then goes right back to step one and you lose more fans because they're losing interest.

[00:21:57] James: it has this endless cycle and the worst [00:22:00] case scenario is either the band breaks up or they become a washed up legacy act. And I have seen this,

[00:22:07] James: Back when I was living in San Diego about five years ago, everyone here, I hope knows Alien at Farm. They did that cover of Michael Smith

[00:22:16] Matt: okay, honey?

[00:22:17] James: Exactly. Amazing cover. Arguably more popular than the original because it wasn't Michael Jackson's most popular song, Alienate farm in the early two thousands Their cover that was their big thing. They were, by all means, a one-hit wonder, but they were huge.

[00:22:31] James: They were touring in a bus. They were playing massive festivals. They were in Europe, they were everywhere.

[00:22:36] Matt: they are still playing massive and they are still touring in a bus

[00:22:42] James: here's the thing, when I lived in San Diego, they played a free show in like a hundred or 150 cap bar, and it didn't even sell out.

[00:22:50] James: They have fallen

[00:22:52] Matt: We played with them

[00:22:53] James: really nice

[00:22:53] Matt: there was a music festival and. That was a band that you could visibly tell was on [00:23:00] stage. for those of you who don't know the history behind Alien Ant Farm, alien Ant Farm wrote that cover and then they were advised to not release that song first because then they would be labeled as a cover band and

[00:23:11] James: and their original

[00:23:11] Matt: material wouldn't go anywhere.

[00:23:12] Matt: And they decided to ignore that, and they released their

[00:23:15] James: first single as

[00:23:16] Matt: smooth criminal,

[00:23:17] James: no.

[00:23:19] Matt: it is, the quintessential, they did what they weren't supposed to do, which has kind of been funny. It's led to a whole career of them doing outlandish things to try to get noticed.

[00:23:28] Matt: they went to, I can't even remember what city, it might have been like Washington, DC across the street from where some big artists was supposed to

[00:23:34] James: Oh No

[00:23:36] Matt: in the

[00:23:37] James: It was the V e T awards in LA and it was the video for these

[00:23:41] James: days

[00:23:42] Matt: it.

[00:23:42] James: I'm ashamed that I actually know that much about I parp

[00:23:45] Matt: when they played live, they, obviously the very last song that they played was Smooth Criminal. But dude, their lead singer was miserable. He hated his life. He didn't like his fans because they were only interested in hearing Smooth Criminal. And literally he'd be like, yeah, don't worry, we're gonna play it.[00:24:00] [00:24:00] Matt: And

[00:24:00] James: Oh.

[00:24:01] James: bitter.

[00:24:03] Matt: oh, very bitter. he obviously wanted to be something more than a cover artist. and you know what, when you do that, you kind of lump yourself into that. So word of the whys never release a cover.

[00:24:13] Matt: First you become a alien farm or a framing. . And it doesn't matter how good your music is or confide, all these bands were fantastic. They have so much good material, but nobody cares about any of their original stuff because it's like, framing Hanley put out Lollipop.

[00:24:26] Matt: now the only song that people know by framing Hanley is The Little Wayne cover, for you. That's awesome. The song's rock. But man, you just, really box yourself in there.

[00:24:35] James: to be fair, I agree with you in general, but I think I prevail with their blank space cover. They

[00:24:42] James: nailed it

[00:24:42] Matt: Yeah. I think that they to do that because of the way that they marketed Space.

[00:24:49] Matt: because they were the first people that instead of like writing this big long description inside of the YouTube comment, they wrote very catered words that said like, dude, check out this cover. It's super [00:25:00] sick. that was the dialogue that went between people automatically.

[00:25:02] Matt: And so it seemed as though human beings were talking to other human beings instead of being like, blank Space, Taylor Swift cover, blah, blah, blah, this blah blah. You know, it's like, no. It literally just said, Hey bro, check this out. This song is fat, Ben people listened to it because they assumed that it was their friend, and that was marketing champion right there.

[00:25:21] Matt: That was,

[00:25:22] James: so here's what it was. They released Blank Space as their first single on December 1st, 2014, but they followed it up immediately with two other singles and an EP by December 17th. So basically they had this release plan two weeks, get the hype on this, and then they're like, oh, by the way, we do originals Here you go it worked so perfectly and honestly that was a legendary cover. But I don't hear people say, oh, that's my favorite I prevail song. let me actually pull up Spotify and let's look at what their most played song is. It's not even in their top five. It is their most played song, but it's not unlike the top five that Spotify shows, cause it's not in [00:26:00] order. 116 million plays for blank space. Their next most popular is 108 million. they're not far

[00:26:06] James: behind

[00:26:07] Matt: Another band that actually did a lot of covers, wasn't the first material that they, they released but they realized that there was a formula there that people really wanted was our last night.

[00:26:15] James: Mm Yes

[00:26:18] Matt: guys are just incredible.

[00:26:19] James: represent

[00:26:20] Matt: they're d i y champions. it's honestly kind of shocking to me that I, I haven't mentioned them before, these guys wrote phenomenal music. Their first albums were great, and then I can't remember what their first cover was, but they put it a cover just like a studio cover.

[00:26:34] Matt: And, it got a lot of traction. And so then they, they carried on with that formula and they started putting out a bunch of them, and they actually did everything themselves. You can go and watch a bunch of their videos and pretty much all of their cover videos, they produced themselves. They recorded all the videos themselves, they did all the editing themselves.

[00:26:51] Matt: They released it themselves. and then they were extra smart about it, that they put little videos at the end of all their videos saying, Hey, if you enjoyed this cover, please go click the link [00:27:00] below and link to

[00:27:01] James: Yes

[00:27:01] Matt: originals. while they would have, a hundred thousand views or, you know, a million views on, cover, X, Y, or Z, a corresponding one of their originals would also be gleaning those streams.

[00:27:12] Matt: anybody that was like, wow, these, these guys are hot, these guys have sexy voices. guys are like, man, that guy is so cool. Look at all his tattoos. And those girls are like, wow, he's so hot. Look at all his tattoos.

[00:27:22] Matt: And then they're like, oh, now I need to listen to their original music. And then they listen to it and they're like, wow, this is my favorite band ever. And then they carry on. and our last night has actually followed that formula for quite a while. They did a whole bunch of covers. it wasn't before originals, but, it really invigorated a lot of their, uh, original material.

[00:27:39] Matt: definitely like a top 10 band for me. just in terms of like drive, nothing was ever gonna stop those guys. even when they're having millions of stream on all of their songs. They were out in the lines at Warp Tour working, like promoting their set times, selling CDs.

[00:27:54] Matt: there was an appreciation for their fans

[00:27:56] Matt: when I spoke with every, one of their members individually, of 'em were [00:28:00] super cool. those are the things that ended end up popping back into your mind.

[00:28:03] Matt: when you think about specific artists, when you have something bad that pops into your mind, you remember that and you generally tell people about it, you tell an average of 10 people when something negative happens and you tell an average of two to three people when something good happens.

[00:28:15] Matt: it's really, really, really impressive when, media content in general gets wide and far from good material, like uplifting material. That's why Jimmy Fallon is one of the most impressive talk show hosts in history because he built the largest audience ever and he did it all by being hyper positive.

[00:28:32] Matt: he literally is constantly building people up, even if you don't like him or you don't agree with what he does, his platform, the purpose of it was to serve edification and to bring people up, which then enforced caused other people to like, Want to be a part of that.

[00:28:48] Matt: when you are a strong force for positivity, is infectious. people want to be a part of that contagion and when they are and they start bringing people up. And then when you [00:29:00] get this nice little uh, of people that all encourage each other and all bring each other up and all push each other to be the best forms of themselves, that is when you get into a scenario where like, you as an artist really succeed, but boy, your fans are the ones who, really reap those benefits.

[00:29:16] Matt: shoot I love the fact that taking back Sunday and Thursday and every time I die and four years strong, all these bands, they all have good quality friendships with each other. the very last day of Warp Tour 2014 or whatever, it was John actually. was having a baby.

[00:29:31] Matt: And so John was not able to play like the last two days of the tour. so the guitarist from every time I die, stepped in. The guitarist from four years strong, stepped in, the vocalist from Thursday who was on the acoustic stage for that tour came in to do the other vocals. you're never gonna have. Every time I die, an end four years strong and taking me back Sunday and Thursday all on stage together. This cannot happen anywhere, but a live setting. But, their community of uplifting, driven people [00:30:00] built something awesome.

[00:30:00] Matt: And then when they needed something, their friends came to their calling and I, as the viewer, as the concert attendee was able to be like, holy cow, this, will never happen again. stars have aligned. , unicorns falling from the sky.

[00:30:15] Matt: what is happening? And never forget it,

[00:30:17] James: Yeah

[00:30:18] Matt: me so many countless ideas throughout the years for like, wow, what do people really want? Oh, people want crossovers. People want, features and, and then people wanna see these things live too. You you think of like the used, I tend to think of the used and microchemical romance,

[00:30:33] James: Ooh that's a throwback

[00:30:35] Matt: All when you kind of start to think about a lot of these revolutionary songs that changed who we are or, or, really redefine the industry. Like, a lot of the time it's these cool crossover, you know, cover songs, like we all remember the alienate farms, we remember the, double features and the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah blahs.

[00:30:51] Matt: But it's, awesome because all of that is born out of an experience. that is delivered to the consumer that it's unique.

[00:30:57] Matt: I know we've talked about a unique experience for people, [00:31:00] but it goes beyond just like the music that you write, it goes to the experience that you're gonna have with these people.

[00:31:05] Matt: I remember one, one year playing Twister with people at a show,

[00:31:09] Matt: Because

[00:31:09] James: they said hey

[00:31:10] Matt: do you wanna play Twister? And I said, absolutely. But here's the deal. and they said, oh, if you lose, you gotta give us a cd.

[00:31:15] Matt: And I said, oh, that's fine, but if I win, then you all have to buy a cd. And they said, okay, that's fine. And guess what? I lost what did I have to do? I had to give that kid a cd. And there was like, probably a thousand people around to watch me lose this game. I gave this kid a CD and he'll probably never forget that.

[00:31:31] Matt: then the 40 other people that walked up to me and bought a CD afterwards because they thought that I was cool. because I was doing that. They remember that too,

[00:31:41] James: what it comes down to. you were a human being, interacting with other human beings. didn't have this view of I'm better than you. I'm on the tour.

[00:31:48] Matt: and who didn't want to have fun playing Twister? in San Antonio, Texas. Literally standing in the middle of a dirt field, sweating so profusely that like, I was literally living in a pile of myself. It was just gross.[00:32:00] [00:32:00] Matt: and then what were you gonna do? We're all gonna play twister. slime all over each other. It's like, any germophobe that would've been their, their absolute nightmare. and I could have said, Ugh, it's gonna be gross. Like, ugh. Do I really want to get on this twister, Matt, with like, sweaty dudes.

[00:32:13] Matt: And I was like, yeah, I totally do, because this is going to be a memorable moment for these people and for me too. I still

[00:32:20] Matt: the game was fun. all the times I've been to San Antonio, Texas,

[00:32:23] James: Right

[00:32:24] Matt: unique experience, I know I've been there at least two dozen times or, you know, whatever, there's no limit to the, the opportunities that you can kind of create with your fans.

[00:32:33] James: Yeah

[00:32:33] Matt: of them just want a word. of my best friends flew down from Idaho to come see the plot in you. it's his favorite band.

[00:32:39] Matt: It's always been his favorite band. and he's seen them, a dozen times in, countless different states. And even just the opportunity. to say like, Hey guys, I really loved that set. It was fantastic. Please drive safe. thanks for everything you do.

[00:32:53] Matt: And even just to have that opportunity meant the world to him. you don't know where you're gonna meet your fans. Maybe they just want, to give you a word of [00:33:00] encouragement. Maybe they just wanna tell you to drive safe. maybe they want to a story with you. if you interact with your fans, you'll learn those things. You know, if you start asking them the questions, you'll learn everything you, could ever want to know about your fans, cuz they want to tell you.

[00:33:11] James: Oh, a hundred percent. And on that note, I I have a few things that I want to go through to how artists can avoid alienating fans. We've already been talking about this for quite some time, but I want to say one other thing. It goes both ways. If you are a fan of an artist and you see that artist, keep it brief.

[00:33:30] James: Try to read the room when I saw Enter Shikari a few months ago, their bass player, Chris was standing by the backstage door talking to people. I'm like, oh, cool, I'll go say hi and thank him for coming back to the States cuz they're from the uk and half these people were telling their life stories, literally three to five minutes per person.

[00:33:48] James: And then at the end I could tell Chris was like trying to turn away and then somebody else would catch his attention. the dude wanted to leave.

[00:33:56] James: And so it happened like four or five times in front of [00:34:00] me and then finally as my turn, I was just like, Hey Chris, thank you so much for coming back to the States.

[00:34:04] James: Great set. Looking forward to the next time. Safe travels. And I shook his hand and I turned around and walked away and he is like, oh, thank you. I'm like, no, thank you.

[00:34:12] James: And left

[00:34:13] Matt: of relief

[00:34:15] James: And there's like five more people after me. I don't know how long he was there. Like I went to the bathroom, came back out, talked to my friend who's the house manager at that venue.

[00:34:23] James: I looked over and he's still talking to people. I'm like, oh, that poor guy.

[00:34:27] Matt: dude, I saw the, almost when I was like 18 years old with like Emory, and the end of the show, everybody in the entire venue wanted to talk to Aaron Gillespie, and meanwhile the venue was kicking people out. But the first

[00:34:38] James: Yep

[00:34:39] Matt: the very front of the line decided he needed to tell Aaron about how, Aaron's witnessing had, like, led him to Christ and blah, blah, blah, this.

[00:34:45] Matt: And of course Aaron being a wonderful person, was sitting there like, I, you know, and wanted to hear the story. But then it was like anybody who even wanted to say like, thank you, or even like, just shake his hand was getting ushered out of And so I just loudly said like, everybody, they're trying to [00:35:00] kick us out.

[00:35:00] Matt: can we all say. , and I think that kind of like helped the guy realize that it was like he wasn't the only one in the entire audience that wanted to meet Aaron Gillespie.

[00:35:08] Matt: you can take the time to learn these things about your fans and to spend time with them and to not alienate them.

[00:35:12] Matt: there is also a time and place where it's okay to say like, Hey, like, I'm really busy, like right at this current moment. I'd love to like, get your email you were to ask a fan for their phone number, holy cow, dude, you, you would literally change their life.

[00:35:26] Matt: and there's tons of scenarios where like, that's totally applicable. you never know when you're gonna meet somebody else who could potentially be like one of the best friends you've ever interacted with. or if they're just going to be a fan, that becomes this true super fan that propels you for like all of eternity.

[00:35:40] James: I

[00:35:41] Matt: want to make your life better.

[00:35:42] James: I do have to put out one word of caution there which is be extremely careful cause you never know who you're potentially talking to. So do two things. One, make a Google Voice account for your band and that is the number you will use to text all your fans, which is great cuz [00:36:00] everybody in the band can then log in too and you can have a shared.

[00:36:02] James: Number two, never delete anything. Because that way if somebody tries to accuse you of something and it's not true, you can say, here's the screenshots to prove it. this is the discussion we had. hopefully that never happens, and the odds are statistically low that if somebody's accusing you of something that it didn't happen, like typically it happened, but be very careful.

[00:36:23] James: Don't delete anything and make sure not to say anything that you might wanna delete. That's really what it comes down to, is like just be a decent person.

[00:36:31] Matt: Also, a great rule of thumb is if they're underage, don't ask for their phone number there's too much air of, potential, nefarious there. if there's a group of 16 year old girls, it doesn't matter how big of super fans they are, it's always inappropriate.

[00:36:46] Matt: for me as a 30 plus year old male, you, like, it would be very inappropriate for me to ask for their phone number as a means to even just make them a super fan. Like, that would be stepping

[00:36:56] James: Yep

[00:36:56] Matt: a boundary. So, read the room, don't be a sleazy [00:37:00] scumbag.

[00:37:01] James: because I know people are gonna say, but what if you're not sure? It's like, well, if you're not sure, then assume they

[00:37:07] James: they're underage. It's that easy. I remember back when I was 19 I was in college and I came back for summer in the local Burlington scene there is a new batch of kids, like there is every summer in the punk scene and I'm like, half of these kids are like 14, 15, 16.

[00:37:23] James: If they add me on Facebook or social media, that's fine. I'm gonna accept, but I do not talk to now. I know I would never do anything to hurt them, but I don't want people to even see like, oh, James is going talking to like 15 year olds. He's 19. What's up with that? It's like, I wanted friends. That's what I wanted.

[00:37:39] James: But other people don't make that assumption. So I was just like, Nope, I distanced myself. And I don't understand why it's so difficult for Banes to just be decent human beings. it frustrates me so much.

[00:37:50] James: That's a topic for another day It's just be a good human being. that's what it comes down to.

[00:37:55] Matt: biggest thing is like, you have the opportunity to make or [00:38:00] break people. I've told my Craig Owens story before, I've told my Adam Lazar story. I've told plenty of stories about me meeting guys that I, I just looked up to so much.

[00:38:08] Matt: And, luckily for me, there haven't been too many scenarios in my life where artists have been like total losers. like Ronnie Radkey, I tried to meet him, but he literally wouldn't even look at me. He walked by me, didn't,

[00:38:20] James: Ooh

[00:38:21] Matt: I mean, oh dude, it was painful. Auburn Hills

[00:38:24] James: the Palace of Auburn they tore that place down. Such a shame. of the nicest on the tour

[00:38:28] James: air conditioning, that's why I liked it.

[00:38:31] Matt: It was also laid out well, so you could actually get inside the venue from like any side.

[00:38:35] Matt: rather than like having big, giant gate, bottlenecks,

[00:38:38] James: I yelled at security there, not yelled at, but I had spray sunblock in my bag and they wouldn't let me through the gate with that. I'm like, I have an all access pass lady. Like, come on. She's like, no, that's not allowed. I'm like, I'm on the tour. My bus is right there my stuff brought it out

[00:38:54] James: she's like, no.

[00:38:55] James: So I walked around to like the backstage gate, there's glass windows, and [00:39:00] I just walked through the gate and then I knocked on the window and waved and held it up and just saw her face go like grumpy And I'm just like, you lady , like you can't stop me.

[00:39:09] Matt: I, had a similar thing happen in, New York bottle of whiskey.

[00:39:13] James: Oh

[00:39:13] Matt: 21st birthday and we were on the tour and we had a bottle of whiskey in the backpack,

[00:39:18] James: yeah

[00:39:19] Matt: And we just set the backpack down and unzipped it to pull out some promo cards.

[00:39:23] Matt: And it just so happened that a yellow shirt walked by right then,

[00:39:26] Matt: a Live nation event staff or whatever, and he just reaches into our backpack and pulls out the birthday bottle of whiskey. I bought for my best friend on his 21st birthday, and he's like, Nope, this is gone. And I just, no. we are on the tour. This is his birthday bottle of whiskey. We were literally walking through the venue. We were walking from that entrance to our van, which is over there in bus land, and we stopped to pull out promotional material.

[00:39:51] Matt: And you pulled that out of our backpack? Absolutely not. and this guy's all grumpy he's like, oh, okay, well follow me then. And brings me over to his superior.[00:40:00] now we're in a group of like six yellow shirts. And I explained the whole thing to him and he's like, you're on the tour.

[00:40:05] Matt: And I was like, yes sir. Here's promotional cards. Here's my cd. here's everything you want. I was like, I'll show you my identification, which is based out of the state of Idaho. I didn't just drive from Idaho to New York to come to this concert.

[00:40:16] James: Yeah

[00:40:16] Matt: looks at it and he's like, and it's your birthday.

[00:40:18] Matt: He's like, yes, sir. He's like, do you have id? So Jesse pulled out his Id show him his 21st birthday and the guy just goes, birthday. And hands the bottle

[00:40:26] Matt: sometimes security just goes a little bit, too hard, which, you know, good for them.

[00:40:29] Matt: They're there to protect people.

[00:40:30] James: There's that one

[00:40:31] James: guy

[00:40:31] Matt: yeah, there's always, that headstrong guy that's, making like $15 an hour to, to pull, to take

[00:40:37] James: Yeah.

[00:40:38] James: if even like some states there's probably like 7 25 federal minimum they deserve more than 7 25, but that's probably what some of 'em were getting.

[00:40:47] James: warp true security. they could be an interesting bunch, all the locals. That's a story for another time though.

[00:40:53] James: I just wanna wrap this up by saying, how can you avoid alienating your fans? And the first thing I want to say, aside from everything else we've talked about, [00:41:00] is stay active on social media. And I don't just mean posting. I mean like if somebody's commenting, reply to every single comment. Now obviously if you're getting like a thousand comments, that's not viable.

[00:41:10] James: But if you're getting 5, 10, 50, 100 even comments, you can reply to every single one of those. Even if it's just an emoji or a thank you that helps build that relationship with that fan. Somebody sends you a DM reply.

[00:41:24] Matt: say, you can also just incorporate a small anecdote, like if you know that person from a specific location, or if you remember them as a fan, let's say it's your birthday, and somebody's like, oh, happy birthday. And you can get on there and say like, oh, thanks so much.

[00:41:35] Matt: see you next time we're in Connecticut.

[00:41:37] Matt: if you remember where somebody is from, that's gonna blow them away

[00:41:40] James: I'm friends with Soran from, new politics on Facebook. We're not act full of friends. We just, we know each other. I have a story about that, but I just remember one year, all of a sudden on my birthday, there's a post on my wall from Soren new politics was one of my favorite bands at the time.

[00:41:55] James: And I was like, that's sick. I've never had. A person from like an actual big [00:42:00] band, do that before. But other things, I interviewed new politics a few years ago. I've interviewed them a bunch, but a few years ago was the most recent time. And in the years from 2015, which is the last time I spoke with them to 2019, when I did that interview, I got glasses.

[00:42:15] James: and I grew up my hair. So I had changed quite a bit. And I walk into the interview, I'm just like, Hey, how's it going? And so looks at me and goes, huh. Oh how's it going buddy I look totally different. but you just saw the moment it clicks.

[00:42:29] James: And he was genuinely excited. there was another time I interviewed them after the interview, he is like, oh, check this out. And he pulls out his laptop and starts showing me news anchor bloopers, And it's like I gotta go dude. Like your tour manager wants me to leave, but thank you. That's awesome,

[00:42:44] Matt: I had a fan one time. we played a hot topic show. We were supposed to do like a little promotional acoustic set at Hot Topic and before we went and played in Tacoma we went there, and there was like this little girl with two of her friends.

[00:42:54] Matt: there must have been like eight or nine or 10 or something like that. they were of the age that we were like, oh, like [00:43:00] how are you? And she literally had like a, up one of our, promo cards and was like shaking that we were talking to her.

[00:43:06] James: Oh

[00:43:07] Matt: introduced myself and said, thank you for coming. I shook her hand and she literally goes, uhUhuHHuuu you know, like, I'm never washing this hand again. We'll fast forward like a bunch of years, and I get this random DM from somebody who's like, Hey, like, do you remember when you played that like hot topic show a long time ago in Tacoma?

[00:43:25] Matt: I was there and I was like, oh, were you, were you one of Nemo's friends? And she just responded with, you, remember my name?

[00:43:31] James: That's amazing

[00:43:33] Matt: directly to the girl who, I shook her hand and, she, freaked out.

[00:43:36] James: Yeah

[00:43:37] Matt: remembered her name it was her like all grown up now.

[00:43:41] Matt: I just remember, her being like, holy cow, this is so crazy. You know? And she ended up messaging like the band and a few other, other band members and probably ended up buying more merch and stuff like that. But, it was a lasting impression that this girl literally had from shows that were probably close to a decade apart.

[00:43:57] Matt: you can really, really, really make a [00:44:00] lasting impression if you just put in a little tiny bit of groundwork.

[00:44:03] James: Absolutely. And speaking about a little bit of groundwork, that's the next one is run a fan club and keep it alive AFI had a great fan club called the Despair Faction. It was from about 2002 to 2013, and originally it was anybody who signs up gets a lifetime membership, which to be fair, they did honor for anyone who had one of those.

[00:44:24] James: But then in 2013 they switched it to like $60 a year, which hey, I mean that's fair for people who are new. Totally fine. Now the problem is they ran it into the ground, and I don't mean afi the members, but like the people who were running it ran it into the ground and totally killed it. And now it is nothing more than a glorified email list that they open up the subscription for once per year for like two. So it's literally just an email list. It's not a fan club. get zero perks when they open up the email list, they'll be like, Hey, you can buy this merch bundle of new items. And that's cool. But this is just [00:45:00] like extra merch. This isn't a fan club. Even though you're saying the despair faction is your fan club. That kind of sucks because there used to be a really active forum. There used to be the band interacting in the forum. They used to reply to questions as they can ask, AFI section, all that kind of stuff. Now the closest thing we have to that is I admin and the AFI group called Fall Children on Facebook, and there's some other guy who runs Despair faction.club, which in my opinion, AFI should shut down because I've seen hundreds of people say, Hey, I tried to log in on the df.

[00:45:33] James: and it rejects my username and password. What do I do? I'm like, yeah, that's not the df you're putting in your, personal information on a site. That's actually not the df. It has nothing to do with the band. they could potentially scam people with that site they tried to. Now, I don't think they will.

[00:45:47] James: I hope they never will. But as the band, they should be like, no, you cannot do this. Thank you. We appreciate it. But no, you cannot use that name. Now that all aside, enter Sari They have the future historians and it is a yearly [00:46:00] sign up. But I joined it earlier this year and I was blown away. what?

[00:46:05] James: I joined the AFI fan club back in 2009 or 2010. The Despair faction, I literally had to email their management because I never got half my stuff. And this happened to a bunch of fans who signed up at the same time. none of them had any contact or any way of getting in touch with the people who ran the orders.

[00:46:23] James: So I just collected a list of like at least 40 to 50 names and said like, Hey, these are the people who never got what they paid for. Can you all fix that? And then they sent it to the merch company. The merch company fixed it and all that, but it was terrible. Think about the experience if you're an average fan and you buy something from your favorite band and it never gets to you.

[00:46:40] James: And this has been an issue with AFI for like, I don't know, since 2010, basically on and off different merch companies. Just basically a lack of oversight, I think is the problem. Enter Shikari bought their merch package and in the package they were like, here, this is what you're gonna get. And it showed up.

[00:46:55] James: It's this nice envelope. There is a signed customized letter with my [00:47:00] name on it, thanking me for joining the fan club Now I'm pretty sure that it's just a letter. They sign like a hundred copies of it, and then the person who's sending the order fills in the, the name, but still That's cool. A serial numbered membership card.

[00:47:12] James: AFI does membership cards, but they're not numbered. So I know I'm like 3,200 something of future historians, which also lets me do the math that enter Sari is bringing in about $96,000 per year if every single person is still active on that list. That's pretty cool. Now, that's before cost and all that, but that's a good chunk of revenue, Then I got a button, two stickers and not one, not two, but three photo magazines from various tours they've done, and they basically were like, will you send these out while supplies last? the old one, the original one is gone but additions two, three, and four. I got. And that was a super sick merch package.

[00:47:53] James: And then when you go to renew it, the next year, or when I renew it next year, I get to choose a shirt I can choose the 20 21, [00:48:00] 20 22, or 2023 shirt as long as supplies last. That is a good offer. Plus they have an exclusive Facebook group that you can join. You don't need to pay for a forum or any kind of community stuff.

[00:48:09] James: You can literally just have a Facebook group and that also comes with a 10% discount or maybe even 15 on most of the items in their merch store. So I can go to the Sari store and buy merch and get a discount just because I'm in the fan club. I see so many bands, including afi, do fan clubs and it's not nearly anything like that.

[00:48:30] James: And then you add in that inner Chiari is only like $27 a year. a shirt on their store is like $30, but for $27 I can renew and get a free shirt. That is literally a no-brainer. make an offer to your fans. It's a special offer for your fan club that is too good to refuse. Literally, I was just looking at their site one day to research an episode, and I saw this offer and I was like, I'm buying that, and that's why I'm in their fan club now. So make that offer that is so good that they cannot refuse it. Now you don't wanna lose money on that [00:49:00] offer. Make sure that you're still at least breaking even or hopefully making some money. But if you make an offer that's good enough, people will buy it. If you make a terrible offer, some people will buy it, but not nearly as many.

[00:49:11] Matt: It's something relatively easy that you can set up too. I mean, and it doesn't even have to be in a digital setting. You can actually do this at your merch table James, you used to go around at Warp Tour having people. numbers, and then they would get a confirmation code, and then they would show you that confirmation code.

[00:49:26] Matt: It's like, you, you can do that too, by saying like, oh yeah, if you sign up with this email list, give you $5 off a product here at the store.

[00:49:31] Matt: or maybe that $25 shirt, oh, you'll only have a $20 bill. We'll just sign up with our email list.

[00:49:35] Matt: You'll get an email really quick, and that's a $5 discount code.

[00:49:40] James: Perfect

[00:49:41] Matt: email list. you've basically gathered that information that you need so that you can continue to do it. And then on top of that, you've made a sale, you've created more value in their life. And then if you're smart and you have done bundle deals like we've told you too, then you can add that in as another value add

[00:49:55] Matt: sign up for the email list, it'll give you $5 off this shirt, and I'll throw in a free.[00:50:00] [00:50:00] Matt: and then it's like, oh, $10 worth of free stuff. This is awesome. If you don't wanna do CDs because you're in a record deal and that's something that comes outta your recoupable bottom line, then go get yourself a cheap little bag. You'll print a thousand bags and say like, oh yeah, like you don't have anything to carry your stuff while you're here at the show.

[00:50:15] Matt: Sign up with this email list, or get $5 off a shirt and I'll throw in this little tote bag. Oh, you want me to hold onto it? Cool. I'm gonna take a piece of painter's tape, write your name on it, slap it on, put your shirt inside of this bag, and I'm gonna set your bag back here against the back wall. You come get it At the end of the show

[00:50:29] James: Yep

[00:50:30] Matt: have given them a discount.

[00:50:31] Matt: You have gotten their information, you have provided them value, sending them home with a bag, and on top of that, you're providing a safe haven for their stuff while they're. if somebody at a merch table did that to me, I'd be like, dude, these guys are my best friend.

[00:50:42] Matt: when I was working merch for Escape the Fate, if somebody asked me to like hold a coat or something, I would absolutely oblige. Now that would

[00:50:48] James: Yeah

[00:50:48] Matt: 20 coats back behind me, and at the end of the day I'd be like, I'm not sure who's is who's. But I made so many more merch sales because of that.

[00:50:54] Matt: Because people were just like stoked that they didn't have to wear their. the tour started in like [00:51:00] November or October or

[00:51:01] James: yeah

[00:51:02] Matt: was wearing a coat and nobody wanted to pay $10 for coat check. They wanted to pay $10 to an artist. you give me your coat, you buy a $5 cd, and then they put the other $5 in the tip jar.

[00:51:11] Matt: So then the merch guy's happy too. And then he sells even more merch. So all of these things are a big giant Rube Goldberg machine that once you finally realize where all the dominoes go, it falls perfectly. It's methodical and you can really start to develop systems.

[00:51:23] Matt: You can, see what works for some people, what doesn't work for other people. Maybe people like text messages, maybe people like emails. It doesn't really matter. An immense amount of value that you can glean from your fans and, and the way that you glean that value from them is by providing value to them.

[00:51:38] Matt: it's this symbiotic relationship where you give them value and they give you value. rising tide raises all ships. Nobody buys your product because they just want to give you money unconditionally. They would just give you the money unconditionally if that were true. So

[00:51:54] James: and

[00:51:55] Matt: the value.

[00:51:56] James: a hundred percent. And on that note, one last tip I want to give [00:52:00] is reach out to your fans. Even if you don't have anything to sell at that moment, just say, hi, how are you doing? How are things going? What's New York like this time of year? Because I see so many artists who are only reaching out when they have a new product to sell, or they're announcing a tour or something like that, and they'll DM everybody on their list, or they'll email their whole list. Don't do that. Instead, reach out to people at those times. But then also, you send a holiday card. Say Hey, thank you so much for being a fan this year. We're really stoked for 2023. Happy holidays to you and your family. Best wishes, sign the band. You don't then have to say, by the way, here's our custom, limited edition holiday merch.

[00:52:40] James: No, just be like, happy holidays. Thank you so you can do that with dms too. On a smaller scale. reach out to people. Say, Hey, thank you so much for supporting us this year. We're really stoked to probably see you at a show in 2023. Happy holidays. Perfect DM right

[00:52:53] Matt: Also a really, really good place to distribute like silly photos of the band. your professional foot forward is always, you know, like[00:53:00] stern you and gotta look, you know, you play a metal band, gotta look tough, but people wanna see the real you, you know, they wanna see the sweaty twister playing lead singer, if you have like some goofy photos that you're never gonna release on a social media platform, because that's gonna be, contrary to what management is telling you and booking ages are telling you, and labels are telling you. give those to your, your super fans because these are people that have probably already interacted with you enough to realize that like, hey, maybe you're a little bit more jovial and maybe, you know, you're lighthearted.

[00:53:26] Matt: show 'em that picture of you guys all acting like. Jack asses, like that's okay. And it's okay to distribute those, especially to your super fans because that's just gonna develop a more intimate connection with these people. There are so many awesome ways that you can develop lifelong relationships with your fans, and it all starts with learning how to distribute those relationships equally have conversations with people, to pull yourself out of your own element you might be afraid of, that conversation, or you might be afraid of the rejection or whatever.

[00:53:54] Matt: The only way for you to elevate yourself to a point where you really know what your fans want, [00:54:00] need and love is by putting yourself out there and interacting with them.

[00:54:03] James: That does it for this episode of the Bandhive Podcast. Thank you so much for tuning and listening. I really appreciate it, and I hope that this episode has given you some ideas onto how you can not burn bridges or lose the relationships with your fans because it's so easy to do, especially like Matt was saying with the internet, it's just really bad, so do not ever take your fans for granted.

[00:54:24] James: Instead, go out there, build those relationships. Remember as much as you can about your fans, because as Matt said, if you remember somebody 10 years later, that is gonna make them feel so incredibly special. no matter what you do, go out there, be a good human being and build relationships, because that's ultimately what people attach to a band is not oh, the music's so good, which, yeah, people can appreciate the music, but if you want a lifelong dedicated fan, that is where you need to have a relationship with that fan.

[00:54:54] James: Maybe it's you in the band. Having a relationship with that person. Maybe it's another fan in your [00:55:00] community, having a relationship with that person. A lot of bands, their community is what brings super fans into the fold. It really depends on your approach and what that fan is looking for in a connection.

[00:55:10] James: But no matter what, you need to nurture those connections in any way possible. Thanks again for listening. We'll be back next Tuesday at 6:00 AM Eastern, right here in your favorite podcast app. Until then, I hope you have a great week. Stay safe, and of course, as always, keep rocking.